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  2. adamOVD

    White Whiskey

    Thanks @dhdunbar I submitted my comment to the TTB. The proposed changes are on pages 60593-60599 if anyone is interested, and reading just that isn't too terribly painful. Don't be put off by the shear volume of bureaucratic and legalistic excrement. These are also the changes that are considering defining a barrel as 50 gallons, which I know will hurt a lot of people, and have been discussed here. I've put off submitting a comment far too long. Not sure what the deadline is.
  3. Today
  4. dhdunbar

    White Whiskey

    I may have missed this conversation on purpose. TTB makes standards of identity.The standards are in 27 CFR 5.22. The distillate that becomes whiskey must derive from 100% grain distilled at less than 190 proof. Other restrictions apply to different types of the class whiskey. I will talk only about the class standard. Further, I will ignore the corn whiskey exception. All references here to "whiskey" should be read as "whiskey except for corn whiskey." A distillate of 100% grain distilled at less than 190 proof is not whiskey. Such distillates becomes whiskey only after storage in an "oak container." The oak container necessary for turning an appropriate distillate into whiskey may be new or used. The type of storage determines, in part, the type of whiskey. You can put oak staves in a barrel, but unless the barrel is oak, the spirit is not aged because it is not stored in oak. That is a matter of definition. Puting spirits into a container, of any type, that has oak staves, chips etc, is a treatment of the whiskey. If you treat the whiskey with oak staves, chips, etc you must disclose that you treated it with staves, chips, etc. The label for any whiskey that has not been stored in oak for four years or more must contain a statement of age. If a whiskey is held in an oak for 5 seconds, then, if the container is new, the statement would be "aged 5 seconds," or" aged not less than 5 seconds." If the container is used, the statement of age will be "stored 5 seconds," or "stored not less than 5 seconds." If a product does not meet a standard set out in §5.22, it must be labeled as a distilled spirits specialty. A distilled spirits specialty is supposed to be labeled "in accordance §5.35. §5.35 requires a fanciful name and truthful and adequate statement of composition. Other restrictions and conditions may apply. For example:. You may not state age on a distilled spirits specialty. Unless a specialty item contains a class or type of spirit as an ingredient, the label may not make mention of the class and type. Since a distillate of 100% grain distilled at less than 190 proof that has not been stored in oak is not a whiskey, it follows that the term whiskey could not appear on the label in the form "unaged whiskey" or"white whiskey" or any other reference that includes the term "whiskey". An aside - Note that the unadorned class and type statement is deemed to be a truthful and adequate statement of composition when the product meets the standard for that type. TTB does not state it that way, but it is one way of thinking about the standards. Of course, the adequacy depends on how well the type standard is known. Who among you would care to compare and contract blended whiskey, a blend of straight whiskeys, and light whiskey. I will not do it without rereading the standards, which few people routinely carry with them when they are shopping. So, every label that was approved for white or unaged whiskey in the past was approved in error. Don' try to confuse me with the fact that there are a few of them out there. I know that. So does TTB. TTB recognizes that its position on age is ludicrous, given its adamant refusal to require some minimal period of storage. Because it is ludicrous - or perhaps to remedy its past errors of approval - TTB proposes to change the rules to create a standard for unaged or white whiskey. Now, TTB does not use the word "ludicrous," That word is mine and I will own it. Here, in TTB's won words, is how it describes the situation and a proposed change that would create a standard of identity for white and unaged whiskey. I've taken the liberty of parsing the statement, bullet style, to make it easier to understand: TTB also proposes to provide for a new type designation of ‘‘white whisky or unaged whisky.’’ TTB has seen a marked increase in the number of products on the market that are distilled from grain but are unaged or that are aged for very short periods of time. Under current regulations, unaged products would not be eligible for a whisky designation (other than corn whisky) and would have to be labeled with a distinctive or fanciful name, along with a statement of composition. In order to provide guidance for these products. TTB proposes that products that are either unaged (so they are colorless) or aged and then filtered to remove color should be designated as ‘‘white whisky’’ or ‘‘unaged whisky,’’ respectively. This proposal represents a change in policy, because currently all whiskies (except corn whisky) must be aged, although there is no minimum time requirement for such aging. TTB believes that currently some distillers may be using a barrel for a very short aging process solely for the purpose of meeting the requirement to age for a minimal time. Consequently, TTB is proposing the new type designation of ‘‘white whisky or unaged whisky’’ and specifically requests comments on this new type and its standards. I will add that TTB damn well knows that some distillers are using a very short aging process, which make a mockery of TTB's dual positions that (1) age is important to creating the character a spirit must have to be whiskey, but (2) there is no need for a required minimum period of storage that will create the required character. See - the term "ludicrous" does not seem to be so harsh a judgement after all. If you have a horse in this race, comment,m as TTB that requests you to do. Read the NPR at https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2018-11-26/pdf/2018-24446.pdf and submit your comments through this link: www.regulations.gov/comment?D=TTB-2018-0007-0001. I emphasis that because it is important. I provide the rather detailed background so that you know the context in which the proposal resides.
  5. Dmonahan

    White Whiskey

    Yes I know of many that don't quite follow the rules as they should with regards to whiskeys. My friends at 300 Days of Shine do a nice job with moonshine with some barrel finishing for some of their shine. They get some great barrel flavors without needing age statements. Check out their label pic
  6. adamOVD

    White Whiskey

    @Dmonahan cool tip. I like the flavor of unaged spirits over 160P though so I think I'll just drop the whiskey. For what it is, I think Moonshine or something has better ring to it, and more transparency than Light Whiskey. Has anyone been audited by the TTB? What is the consequence of a mislabel? Fine? Shutdown? I know one distillery with "single malt" whiskey that's only been in production 2 years max. I believe it has no age statement. I've seen quite a few violations I won't go into detail about here. Some from distilleries that have been open many years. I've been trying my best to go by the book, but kind of wonder why bother at certain point.
  7. Maybe I don't have much room to talk, as I've asked plenty of stupid questions here, and am extremely grateful for the advice I've received. I've also been teaching myself the principles of distilling, but started very small scale and worked up, with very little overhead, or consequences in a failed batch. However, you sure seem have some nice equipment that you've obviously spent a lot of money on. I'd recommend spending more and hiring someone to consult with to show you how to properly use it. Running a column is an entirely different beast than a pot, and your description of it may just be confusing to me but I'm not sure you fully get it. That being said, I find a stripping run and a spirit run with 2 plates on my much cheaper equipment is about the same as a single run on 5 plates. It will probably put you over 160P though. Also if the stripping run took a long time. A spirit run will take longer, and filling the boiler with low wines from 5 striping runs will be a multi day process. If I were you, I'd dump 300 gallons of hot water on top of your 100 gallons of low wines to ease you heat up time, and then practice running your column with that with 2 plates. If it goes wrong just dump it back in and try again. Best of luck, dont blow up.
  8. Dmonahan

    White Whiskey

    If you want a way to not need an age statement. Make use of this rule: TTB has also had a number of requests from industry members for guidance on labeling products that are stored in two different types of barrels. For example, whisky must be stored in oak containers, in accordance with the standard of identity. When a producer stores the whisky in oak containers and then stores it in a different type of container, such as a maple barrel, the spirit becomes a distilled spirits specialty product and must be labeled with a statement of composition, such as “Bourbon Whisky finished in maple barrels.” TTB proposes, in § 5.155(c), to add this requirement to the regulations. So put you white whiskey in a barrel for 1 minute, so you can call it a whiskey. Then introduce a secondary treatment, such as above so that it becomes a distilled specialty spirit. As such your label can read "Whiskey" in large letters with smaller finished with XXX. As a distilled specialty spirit, no age statement is required.
  9. Also, had i had used the column instead of stripping run as 51 gallons out of 600 was potential 100% ethanol i guess that would have been ok to run all five plates?
  10. thats exactly what we should have done, dont know the column yet still researching it. How many plates would you recommend starting with? Also as we come from a thumper world how long to rectify? At a certain point it can only rectify so much and the vapors will pass to the column, right? So lets say i only wanted to use 3 or 2 plates , since it feeds from the bottom up the column i guess we would have to by pass the upper two or three plates?
  11. 1. we have 400L recieving tanks but we also weighed it. 2. we have a 600 gallon pot still with whiskey helmet and 5 plate column. did not use the column as this is new to us coming from a moonshine still with a thumper.
  12. This was already a very long run and just the way we were taught at distillery in virginia was to stop running on stripping run at 20%. When we stopped we were running the still at 98°C / 208°F and were getting a trickle out of the still. for you column experts if i had used the column should i have opened all 5 plates and how long would you let it go with dephlegmator? Until it can rectify no more?
  13. so my almost 100 gallons of 37.7% ABV is correct? Also we did not run this through our column only our whiskey helmet. We came from a 50 gallon copper moonshine still with a thumper to a 600 gallon pot still with a whiskey helmet and a 5 plate 18" column. We havent grasped the concept yet of using a column so we bypassed it for our maiden voyage on this monster. Very new to the whole dephlegmator thing. From what i been reading i probably should have but not sure how much that would have stripped out our flavors yet. Life used to be so simple.
  14. For giggles, collect deeper on the next run, you'll see that even if you run to 0% on the hydrometer, you won't make it to 51 if you are running grain-in (unless you underestimated your starting gravity of course).
  15. Keep in mind, if you are fermenting and distilling on the grain, you need to remove the bulk volume of remaining grain from the total volume to calculate an accurate alcohol yield. 600 gallons of grain-in fermented wash, with 1200 pounds of grain, at 8.5% is not 51 gallons of absolute (100%) ethanol (600 * 8.5% = 51), because you need to net out the weight of the non-alcohol containing grain solids that are hitchhiking along. At worst case, 1200 pounds of grain into 600 gallons yields 100 "gallons" of solids, and 500 gallons of alcohol laden liquid. Now, this is the worst-case - we've converted a good portion of grain starch to sugar in the liquid, so that weight needs to be removed, but grain germ, pericarp/endocarp, husk, bran, protein/fiber/fat, etc - these need to be removed from the volume - they are taking up considerable space, but do not contain alcohol. Realistically, you'll be somewhere between 43 gallons of absolute, and 51 gallons of absolute. You can get very clever here, by estimating the non-starch component of your mash-bill and adjusting as necessary. Just for conversation, let's split the difference - say realistically somewhere around 47 gallons of absolute as the max.
  16. Congrats to 52eighty Distilling for winning four medals at ADI, among which best of class whiskey. Proud to have you as our customers! https://istillblog.com/2019/03/23/52eighty-distilling-wins-big-time/ Regards, Odin.
  17. I am flying to Denver in a few hours. We'll give another 4-day distilling workshop at 52Eithty Distilling. Still 3 tickets available, so if you are in the area, want to learn about distilling, mashing, and fermenting, cuts, and virtuous cycles ... please join! https://www.istill.com/courses Regards, Odin
  18. Yesterday
  19. Good Morning ADI-Land!!!!!!!!! Well, I am here today to thank all of you that stopped by my booth at the expo in Denver!!! I had a wonderful time getting to know all of you better, and connect up with some old friends, as well as make many new ones. It was a fantastic turn out for sure! If you did not get the chance to go, do yourself a favor and make sure you hit up next year’s conference in New Orleans!!!!! I cannot wait. OK, so last week I told you I had big news, and this is the week to release it to anyone that was not at the convention. I, InsuranceMan 2.0!!!, have been named as the endorsed and recommended insurance agent by ADI for their membership by Eric Owens of ADI. I have attached a copy of his letter as well for your perusal. This is quite an exciting partnership as I have been working with ADI and their membership for several years, and this truly shows all of our commitment and pursuit to make the insurance marketplace better for everyone. The more distillers insured means better rates by being able to calculate historical data which means opening up new markets for everyone, and the hopes of being able to lower rates in the future and have more competitive options. These are certainly exciting times, and I know it will mean great things for all of us in the future! Thank you to everyone that has worked with me in the past and the present, and for all of you that have not had an opportunity to work with me, I greatly look forward to working with all of you as well. With that, I am off. I don’t just mean that is it for today, I mean I am really off. As I stated last week, even Insurance Man 2.0!!! needs some R&R sometimes, so I will be out of the country for a bit. Don’t worry though, I will be back April 2nd (with a bit of a jetlag hangover), but I will be back. Until then my friends … Stay Vigilant, Aaron Linden a.k.a. InsuranceMan 2.0 307-752-5961 insuranceman2.0@yahoo.com Aaron Linden Endorsement.pdf
  20. Follow @Silk City Distillers questions and advice. He'll get you going to the right direction. BTW, we do many stripping runs on our baine marie prior to doing a spirits run on our direct fire.
  21. We are relisting this still for sale today (3/21/2019) due to a real estate/financing issue encountered by our previous buyer. The unit has remained in storage, in our possession and was never moved. All information previously conveyed about the unit is valid.  Selling a complete Cage & Sons Advanced Pot and Column Still System. New, unused and crated ready for immediate purchase and delivery. Cage & Sons is a highly respected and experienced still fabricator from whom we have received outstanding service and assistance. Asking $45K USD. Buyer responsible for shipping/transport from Oxford, MS. Serious inquiries only, please. Contact 646-623-2089. See attached photo and system details below. System overview: Best use: Whiskey, Brandy, Rum, Vodka, or Gin Production Versatile and Cost Effective Easy Maintenance with Clean in Place system 304 Polished and Brushed Stainless and Polished Copper construction Material Thickness: Kettle: 4&5mm SS: 3mm Copper: 3mm Piping: 2mm Upgrades included: Copper Column on Kettle Carterhead-style Gin basket (not shown in photo)
  22. FINALLY, someone who understands roken is gezond. I've been saying this for years
  23. Is there any reason why you wouldn’t strip more than one batch before you do a spirit run? Also, with 5 plates available, why didn’t you run it single pass? Also keep in mind that you likely may not be able to use 5 plates on a whiskey strip - as you’ll easily be above 160 proof - unless you add a lot of water.
  24. Well I have a 600 gallon still with a 5 plate column I also was told by my manufacturer to use a half charge. so now I'm at the Dilemma do I take my hundred gallons and add 200 gallons of water and run it through the refracting columns ?
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  26. This due to the reality it is gaining in importance. This is a bad practice for multiple uses. Spell check and grammar check everything before posting the concept. This is the first tag the web page bed. how quit smoking fat burning supplements fogyĂłkĂşra tabletta tapasztalatok oorzaken geheugenverlies roken is gezond
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