MG Thermal Consulting

It is a nebulous thing because you're comparing the heat input on the still, how long the still operates, how much water is a part of the vapor and the performance of the still condenser. Sometimes the condenser manufacturer will tell you how much GPM you need (which is usually on the high side). I've seen an equation used by ethanol plants and it gave me a headache. If you like , give me a call and I can talk to you about it. Regards, Mike Gronski 770-995-4066

As you grow, it is proven the most effective way to run a cooling system from a constant control point of view is from a refrigerated chiller and a reservoir tank. If you are crash cooling mash, it pretty much is a must unless you have a huge reservoir. As you cooling water from outdoors goes anywhere above 60F, then the effectiveness in running your still is problematic an near impossible if you need to crash cool mash to near 70F. Lately, some of the distilleries have turned to underground cisterns using treated water and add the chiller unit to supplement. Basically they are trying to get a little buffer using the 55 degree ground. Care must be taken with insulating lines and heat tracing for outdoor piping as well. Mike

Good luck! Hope to talk to you at some point. Mike

Hey, my Mother was born in Macadoo, PA, does that count (jk). I can help you out on a budget for a cooling system, if that helps. Regards, Mike

Ugh, wrong Sag Harbor....sorry 'bout that!

Matt, I remember visiting Sag Harbor when I used to drive to Alex Bay with son's sports team. My Father had a potato farm down in Steuben County when I was young before we moved to Corning. I still remember the potato bins being filled up. I have a company I work with down in this area who may be able to help you out (located in AL, tho). I plan to be more involved with their food processing and automation services in the future since they have processed potatoes, grains and other sources for mash, so if you are interested, give me a shout. Regards, Mike Gronski 770-995-4066

I would say the "true" calculations are more than likely kept secrets or those developed by paying for them. You are left with empirical equations which also use "constants" that depend on the design of the hardware overall heat transfer coefficient- a ring around the rosie.

Looked at the picture from the news article...looks like an open end garage with no ventilation, sooo I can imagine air could be quite laden with alcohol vapor after such an extended run. How can anyone stay awake for 3 days and function properly??? Just sayin' I wouldn't want to be his neighbor in that industrial park. Sorry he was injured, but there might have been more injuries.

In industry, you cannot have anything that creates a spark in the same area as any alcohol vapors. The normal practice, like mentioned above, is to isolate the areas. I am somewhat surprised the fire inspector allowed it, but I'm sure there will be quite the investigation. Mike

I would add Trident Stills from ME, they are very well thought of, especially in the NE.

I tend to agree- I have heard of explosions just due to a wind drift holding vapors in the corner of a building. Of course, what caused the spark, that's the question.

If they are a broker, it is not uncommon to for them to switch vendors on systems, maybe you have one of those cases where the components are not matching up.

I was thinking the same thing, two Nords in Minneapolis:)

Peter, Is your whole system from them? If not, is the still mfr helping you??

If you can calibrate your temp gauges from a known temp and know how to adjust, you should be ok without costing you too much. Gauges can be anywhere from 2 to 5 degrees off, which is a lot when you are attempting to measure your BTU/hr load of your still, even after you measure your flow (in a bucket- a good tip for anyone!). Good luck to you!

I would think variables like entering coolant temperature, flow and the exiting temperature of the product all would have some effect. Engineers designing chemical condensers are usually very particular about all of the above.

For a rough example, a 5 ton chiller with pump, input will run somewhere around 8 KW, times hours in use, times cost cents/kwh. You have to have a 50 amp service for 230/1/60, so there's that cost as well as minimal piping. Does this help?

There's the rub- you have to spend money for a reservoir (even for just the still condenser) or the relative higher load at the outset of the condensing may overwhelm the chiller with hot return if you size your chiller marginally or decide to increase your capacity on the hot input side. In almost all cases, if you are running city water, the payback for switching over to a chiller is normally 2 -3 years, depending on what you locale does not only in the cost of water but also sewers since most cities sewer treatment are woefully undersized, there is going to be a heavy hit coming to pay for all the older plants. If you are located up North, I also have offered an option drycooler for winter use that will only use the circulator pump and fan motor (like a radiator) to charge up you water reservoir, which up in the far North, you may be able to use for up to 6 months of the year, paying for almost 1/2 of the electric used by the chiller and paying for itself in the first year. Calculating the payback unless you have a year of production utility breakdowns would be speculative, but if you have them, it's not too bad a thing to figure once you size the chiller and compare. Mike

Hey Sonny, I used to work for a company that had a plant in Harrisonburg, just down 81. Gotta love those mountains. Lots of Luck! Mike

Like a shell and tube exchanger the heat transfer depends on flow across the surface (like a Mueller falling film exchanger). The distance between the plates would be extremely important to keep the flow moving properly. I would think it is a matter who is doing the application design.

An 18 Kw temp control unit with 1 HP pump, you are getting up to $10K (the only thing I had pricing on was a hot oil controller, which is much hotter and a much higher pressure unit). I can look into it more this week and give you a better budget. Also, I have a contact in Toronto I get larger chillers from who may know of someone around there. Otherwise, the company I was thinking of builds all sorts of electric temp control in Buffalo, N.Y. Close to you?

Just curious, how much KW do you figure, if you use electric, non contact, water heat. Are you running 230/3/60 or 460/3/60?

Mendo...there is a big range of cooling tower prices out there, too (features and "agency" capacity ratings have something to do with it. I personally prefer "dry" coolers, you can get the benefit of cold weather cooler without worry about freeze-up as well as easier switchover to using a chiller in summer hot months. Water treatment is another cost issue that many just prefer to overlook and "turn-off"- I've seen untreated water cut through a steel reservoir and the sides of a galvanized tank in less than 10 years. If it's low cost you want, the fiberglass variety are least expensive, but many need to be assembled, "tied" down and have drain issues as well. I can get you a price on a fiberglass unit, but you would be happier in the long run with a drycooler, I am pretty sure. Mike

How many Btu/hr will this gizmo do with 30 GPM of 50F water, 190F entering mash?

The cold filtering glycol chillers I have always supplied were used below 32F glycol, usually around 25F.