jessicajlemmon

Fell through the rabbit hole for a while, working on the building paperwork and such. The heating pad thing intrigues me. How much of an energy hog is that sytem? Our tank can go up to 300 gallon, but the still we have on order is only 100 gallon, so in theory the heating pad would be able to cover the lower half of the tank and do a standard mash, posisbly. I may have access to some fire insulation type materials that could be good to wrap the unit in. And a picture of the chiller wouldn't hurt (We were out of campden tablets, thus we were poorly trying to pasturize the perry.... lesson learned.)

After much ado, we're in the process of getting our business going. LLC established, EIN, local zoning, building lease, still on order, bonding squared away... but now as I'm getting ready to start the big stuff - TTB paperwork, I'm not sure what order everything needs to be filed. It seems like a lot of the overviews completely gloss over building permitting and state liquor board registrations, and go straight to talking about Federal. In my mind it makes sense to go building permit, state application (I'm in Pennyslvania), and then TTB. But it doesn't look like TTB is looking for building permit documentation and if I can just send in a building diagram of our proposed layout, is that enough to get the federal work going while I get it submitted to the State? Or does the state need the Federal permitting information? I know there can be some overlap on things, but I can't seem to find any examples of how far you can push it. I don't want to trip myself up getting out of sequence. Anyone have some light to shed? Thanks!

Thanks for all the suggestions, we'll definitely look in to the options. I don't think we want to cut the top off (and I think the manway is big enough I can actually fit inside if I *have to*.) Hadn't considered bringing it up to temp and pulling the elements, that's an interesting approach. We were also wondering if we could put a hot plate type set up under it, as menitoned in one of the other options, but the domed bottom makes that a bit more tricky. Cool down is definitely going to be something we need to address as well. We had to wait half a day for a 3 gallon batch of pear wine to cool down enough to pitch yeast, I can't imagine how long this thing would take at full capacity without a little help. We had planned on picking up ye old standard dairy tank, but this one popped up for a fair price and we just couldn't resisit. My better half has good sourcing for all the pieces and parts, it's more the question of what we need to look for. I think this gives us good direction in general. We do have access to both electric and gas, the on demand water heater might be a good way to go. As of right now we're aiming for 100 gallon still, but we're thinking of maybe cooking 2 batches at a time (2/3 capacity of the tank) just to keep things efficient. A side debate regarding this thing is building a platform for it to go on so we can gravity feed from it and elminiate the need for a pump at that part. Has anyone tried jacking one of their milk tanks up to accomplish this?

Well, we jumped the gun ever so slightly and picked up a used bulk tank for use as a mash tun. 300 gallon capacity, was used to make sugar syrups prior. Pretty good shape, has the agitator but needs a new motor. Single wall, no jacket, domed bottom. So now comes the tricky part... easiest/smartest way to turn this thing in to a cooker? A couple contraints: We're not doing steam, so that's out and we won't likely have 3 phase power for the foreseeable future. We're looking to cook 100% corn or a sugar wash for starters. Move on to a more standard bourbon grain bill after that. Which makes the handling of electric elements tricky with the whole scorching issues. We are open to the possiblity of strikewater if we absolutely have to. Probably not the ideal set up but we're starting on a shoe string and this tank leaves us good room to grow (or even convert to a big pot down the line!) Here's a pic of the new baby. (Damrow 300surg gallon dairy/food tank.)

Thanks for the leads, I'm looking in to things a bit base don those. Cooperstown is a bit of a haul for us but it is a nice drive.

Fairly sure this is a long shot, but I'm hoping there are some ground to glass growers around here. We live in Northwestern Pennsylvania and are looking for some hard red winter wheat seed. It's almost time for planting, and none of the local places carry it or order it in. We would like to do around 3 acres as a trial run. (3 bushels to an acre is about right?) 5 acres worth would be great if the price was good.(We would also be interested in barley seed as well.) Being able to grow our own has a number of benefits to our plan. I have found some sources from the midwest that I can order from, but was hoping to find someone in the Ohio, New York, Pennsylvania type regions. We would gladly drive to pick it up if it's within a reasonable radius. Thanks! Jessica

Hello there, A little late to the party, but we're finally making some headway out here in NW PA and interesed in keeping up with the Guild. Hopefully the first meeting went well, we're a little out of the loop being this far away from Central PA. (Went to school at PSU main and worked out that way for quite a few years as well.) Hoping to start getting some official paperwork back in upcoming weeks, but we're still in the early stages for the most part. After 2 years of trying to find a local municipality to play ball, we finally found a place and got our local approvals through last month. I'll keep my eye out for more PA threads as they pop up. Glad to see everyone joining forces!

I'm an Architect and trying to start my own craft distillery. Even though I can do a bulk of the design work myself, it's still likely I'll have to hire an engineer for some of the mechanical systems. There are a LOT of variables. If you were moving in to an old micro brewery and making no changes, you might not need one. Usually though if you need a building permit, and it's commerical, you're going to need a stamped set of drawings. (Residential is a whole other beast.) Just because a space is small doesn't mean it isn't complicated. Just because a space is big, doesn't mean it has to be expensive. The general rule of thumb is +/- 6% of your construction cost (mind you if they have to hire engineers, that comes out of their 6%). If there's a lot of code research involved (muti tenant/fire separations, change of building use) that can drive up the cost as well. You might not think there's much to the drawings but there's a lot to the paperwork and anyone putting their stamp on it is liable fo the health, saftey and welfare of the people in and around that building. If there is infrastructure that needs to be put in by the owner to be able to fit out your space, that might be a reason for the high cost. 15k does sound steep, but like I said, variables abound. We were hoping to buy a building, then it would be cut and dry for me. As it stands now we're looking at a lease, and I'm plenty confused about how to approach who pays for what. That's not the end of the business I ever have to deal with. I'm hoping once I get through my own set up, I can start helping others out as well. There's still a lot to learn.

We've been jammed up by this as well in my town in Pennsylvania. I can always get one of the two uses, but never both, even if it's a Business zoning and such. We haven't enlisted a lawyer yet, but that's the next round if we really want to push it. I'm actually an Architect and not being able to get the home town to bend at all has been very frustrating. Wine country is about 30 minutes away, but unfortunately, that's not where our land is. That direction it would be quite easy.

The barrel issue is something we've mused as well in our 'start up' discussions. How to get around the bottle neck of supply. We tend to be of the DIY mindset, so a lot of times we default to "How hard would it be to make our own?" (Cue long sessions of youtubing barrel construction.) That said, that's WAY beyond our current skill set and scope, but it's a fun puzzle. I also tend to think along the lines of Old Spye. Innovate rather than recreate. Sometimes we're hampered by traidtion for tradition's sake. Yes, on one hand it can sort out the 'riff raff' but on the other hand it's causing other strains on both mateirals and businesses. The power of a cooperative might be a good solution to start. Buy in bulk and distribute as-needed. But someone is still going to have to stick their neck out there. It's definitely an interesting topic to consider.

I've seen places rinse them with whatever product will be going in them. Pretty sure they just did that right out of the shipping box.

Interesting idea on the shipping container for the extra storage. We live in an area that gets "polar vortex" cold in the winter, but there might be a way to make that work. I'll look up Trident. Thanks!

Wow @ 350 square feet! The facility we're looking at has a pole barn that's right around 1,000 SF, that we would finish off for production. A nice retail space/bar is attached to that but we're pretty much limited to the pole barn for storage and production. I'm a little bit murky on what off site storage is allowed in PA, but there's the potential to put another storage building on the property, down the line. We have been considering having something built locally, we know a lot of metal fabricators, just not any that specifically know the specific ins and outs of a still, so I'm hesitant to do that.

Yes, the testing couldn't start until the approvals were in place, just the benefit of the smaller batches as we test. Poor phrasing on my part. Looking to make whiskey, gin and possibly a vodka down the line, but the goal would be something with more flavor. I can see a small set up being totally inefficent if vodka was the goal. This is a situation where we would keep our day jobs (at least for a year or so), so efficency is important to me as well. Bigger would be ideal, but compromise could get things going sooner.

No one else in this area, thus the eagerness to get going before someone else does. (And the trouble we've had with the local municipalitie.) There are brewries that could help us out on that end, but not for the distilling itself.

We've been bouncing around for a while with issues of location, pricing and such. It looks like we finally have someone that's willing to play ball with zoning, but the available property is a bit on the smaller side. The good news is, it's also a lot cheaper than the original place we found. That said, we were fixating on a 250g +/- still initially. I'd rather have everything set up once and have the capability to do decent runs once we get rolling. Of course, that's not a cheap date and anything that size has a lead time to it. (And getting quotes... well... I'm sure you know.) Since we've spent so long spinning our wheels with municipalities and locals, we've started debating the pros of picking up a small set up = 50 gallons or so, just so we can get the permitting started and start testing our recipes without going overboard. Then add the bigger still in as phase 2. Has anyone gone this route? Is it worth doubling the effort? Anyone have a nice small set up they've outgrown and want to get rid of? Thanks Jessica

That starts pushing me pretty far out of town, but there are options. We know a brewer in another small town that's not too far away, and he's going to keep an ear out for properties. The town loves the business he's brought in, so it would be a nice association. I'm meeting with a person from a local development authority today...

So this is a fun little twist.... Muncipality #1 (where my family has lived since the 1890's) shot us down once already after saying how great it sounded and how they were totally behind us... Muncupality #2 (where I went to K-12) Was behind us, but then got nervous about the Manufacturing in a Business zone. After that meeting, we made note that in Municipality #1 there was a cider mill/general store constructed in B-1, within the past few years. VERY similar set up/use/size. While I'm not looking to build in #1 at this point, it's adjacent to #2 so I thought it might be a good example for local precedent. After a week of playing tag with the architect, zoning officer and township supervisor of #1 - my inquiry about how they processed that project got the following response: "At this point, I cannot say why, possibly just an oversight at the time they went in. However, a past error does not set a precedent for future development. " So... the cider mill sold the whole package under B-1 "somehow" without any special exceptions. (The mill was a big deal at the time because it burned down and wasn't allowed to re-build on it's original site due to.. .zoning issues...) But I was told that if I wanted to build, I would HAVE to apply for one. That said, I can go to #2 and say: Look, they built this here and didn't need anything special. (And if the press the issue I can at least point out that #1 does have a venue for a special exception.) Ay yi yi.

It will have to be F1 per IBC for permitting, but the zoning is a slightly different beast. They don't like the work 'manufacturing'. (Mind you this is a fairly isolated site that wouldn't bother anyone...) There have been 'issues' in the area in recent years with adult entertainment and bottle clubs trying to move in because of the loose zoning. They managed to squash the bottle clubs and their first knee jerk reaction was that was this was. It is not, which I explained. 3 times. I think they're willing to work with me I just need to give them enough of a plasusible excuse to cover their politican behinds. This whole issues stemmed from the fact that the only person in the Zoning department is 80 years old and won't give out any answers... just to give you an idea. This building would be close to 50/50 Retail/Manufacturing, so arguing the incidiental is going to be tough, but I may still try based on open quantity alone.

Well the local zoning boards here are giving me fits. I'm a licensed architect and I can't seem to get the zoning boards to understand the process and how we can mix the 'light manufacturing' with a tasting room and cocktails. (Very conservative area.) As of right now if I can convince them that the craft distilling (We're looking at a 250 gallon set up) can be described as something other than 'light industrial/manufacturing' or somehow justify that it's an incidental use to the B-1/Mercantile use group, I might be able to get somewhere. (Almost had them convinced it was food prep which would fall under the Restaurant usage the property we're looking at was cleared for...) I saw in passing that someone said by keeping under the quantities that trigger the requirement for fire protection, it also gives you leeway to argue that it's an incidental use to the Mercantile use group. Does anyone have any more information on that? Or success with that? The current property we're looking at is in a fairly rurual area and the township supervisors have been there for about 40 years... not the more progressive bunch. I don't want to commit to a property until I can find a damn place that will allow it, natrually. This has already wasted about 6 months of my time, being approved twice, then immediately over turned.

Can't seem to open the picture, but would love to see it!

I'll be happy to break even! (Ok, maybe a little profit... I have my eye on a big, black Dodge...) The facility has been the biggest stumbling block so far. We have tons of resources that we aren't 'allowed' to use for various reasons and it's very frustrating. I haven't talked to zoning for this place yet because i want to at least know if it's close to being able to be financed, but I've reviewed the books and we should be good to go... hopefully. If not, I'm on to Plan C and then I'm pretty much out of options.

Same here. I've been going to the forum through the ADI site just to be safe.

We were 'observing' bottles at various places over the weekend and noticing that not many are the bar tops. After talking to a couple of bartenders, they actually seem to prefer the twist off. It seems like 'everyone' is using the short, round bottle with the t-top and I'm trying to figure out why? From the intial pricing I've done, they seem to be more expensive. Just wondering, first of all, if people are going w/ the corks because they're easier to do by hand? While I do like the look, I'm just wondering if it's a premium worth paying for. Also, has anyone dabbled with wax dipping? Natrat - I'll definitely be hitting you up about the converted bulk tank question. I need to dig up the specs on it. Thanks! Jessica

Thanks for all the replies so quick! <if> we get the property we want, the primary advatange is a lot of initial storage space, so we can do certain orders in bulk if we need to, without a storage issue. (Loading dock, large truck friendly, etc.) The building was an old train depot feedmill. I have a good quote on still eqipment, found pricing for totes, and have already hit up the local feedmill for grain costs. We intend to do some bourbon, and getting non 'novelty' costs for barrels has been a bit tough, but we have a ballpark at least for budgeting. Need to find out what the average cost is to convert a milk tank into a mash cooker. (Have access to a good size, in good condition for a resonable price.) I know it's done a lot, but unless I can crawl inside one and see the nuts and bolts of it, I can't estimate what cost it might be. I do appreaciate the ballpark prices on the labels and bottles. That sounds fairly in tune with the stuff I've dug up myself (no thanks to the reps). Anyone have experience with USA glass vs. China glass? I'd prefer to go US, but... that might be an upgrade we do once we can get things going. I've heard mixed reviews on China glass from other craft distillers we've talked to. Water filtration/amendment will likely be an issue there since it's well water. I haven't even scratched the surface on that yet. I intend to keep the scale of the operation down small enough that we won't trigger sprinklers. That would be a financial death blow at this point. I do have a concern that as this gets more popular in PA, that the legislation will get increasingly refined, aka restrictive. I'm an Architect by day, so I see that happen a lot when code changes happen. I think there is enough market-share in this region that I don't have to worry too much about being quick to market, but I don't want to sit and wait forever, either. We have a lot of good resources, but figuring out how to utalize them all is the challenge. I'd love to hear about things like using or selling spent grains, if I can get the most bang for my buck, I'd rather use it than throw it in the trash. We can grow grains on the family farm and recycle the spent grains as beef feed if necessary. We also tend to do a lot of the 'hands on' work ourselves, though there are some specific things I would hire out. I anticipate a lot of sweat equity to get rolling. Initially we're aiming for a 250 gallon still set up. It seems to be a reasonable size for our situation, and we have room to expand in the future. See what happens? Get me talking about this and I can't stop! Thanks!