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vsaks

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Posts posted by vsaks

  1. Hi,
      We are looking at entering other states and looking for some guide (1st preference), software or service providers who can help with licensing/reporting/compliance with individual states.

    It takes us 20 minutes to do California ABC reporting right now, so a little apalled by 1500 set up fee and $500(/state) monthly fee quoted by providers like Park Street

  2. Did not know about OSHA stuff. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for this information.

    On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 3:31 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

    Surprised you would even hit a "real" 6% LEL, that's actually a very high reading.  Of course, it depends on the size of your space, the air changes per hour, etc.  Yes, I realize that's 6% of the 3.3% LEL of ethanol vapor.  Suspect that meter drift gave you an inaccurately high baseline reading (zero calibration).

    Ethanol vapor would be detectable by odor at about 85-100ppm, and 1000ppm is the OSHA exposure limit.

    6% LEL would be approximately 2000ppm, twice the legal exposure limit.

    3300ppm would be the 10% LEL, 6600ppm would be 20% LEL.

    By 5000ppm (15% LEL), ethanol vapor would begin to be uncomfortable, by 10,000 (30% LEL) there would be obvious discomfort, by 15,000 (50% LEL) you would be continuously coughing and tearing. 20,000ppm (70% LEL) is completely intolerable.

    Previously, 15,000ppm was the NIOSH IDLH limit - Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health.  But that's been revised down to 3,300ppm (10% LEL).  This is likely the reason an engineer or AHJ would specify 10% LEL alarms - that limit is about people safety, not explosion risk safety.

    The other factor to keep in mind, is that localized readings might be higher.  A still leaking vapor could have a much higher concentration at the still, and might not be so obviously noticeable otherwise.  Just being near 15% LEL, would likely be very noticeable to a skilled distiller, you are your own combustible gas detector.  But you might not be close enough to notice, until it was too late.

  3. It is a question of cost and added complexity. You have to account for not just product movement but also CIP. We have hard piping from HLT -> mash tun -> fermenters -> wash still -> LWF -> spirit still -> ISR -> SR and bunch of loopbacks. You end up with manifolds on inlets and outlets and have to be sure that the correct valve is open and the rest closed.

    12 hours ago, SSVI said:

    So I've visited a whole lot of distilleries and I can't think of a single one where I've seen a mash tun piped to a fermenter piped to a still, hoses and portable pumps are always used. Breweries I've visited seem to do the same. Is there any particular reason for this? Wouldn't having solid piping make this process a little easier? I'm assuming there is a very good reason for this that I simply don't know. I would appreciate enlightenment from any of you fine folks.

  4. 5 hours ago, bluestar said:

    Everything you said is correct. But as you note, everything needs to be calibrated, or nothing. If you get a unit that can read out ppm or %LEL, you can calibrate. What would be wrong with triggering at 6% LEL ethanol, if 10% is required? You are not prevented from being more stringent. Note, I agree, if you can afford the fancier units, it is a better choice, and if your FM or insurance company requires it, then there you go. But wouldn't it be better for many small distilleries (vast majority) operating without any combustible sensors be operating with what is easily and cheaply available?

    There is no danger until you hit LEL. So a lower limit gives you early warning to fix whatever is wrong, or to get the hell out of there. We chose 10% and 20%, not because it was required by AHJ, but because we felt it gave us enough headroom. If you have an alarm which gives you LEL readout and you can choose the actionable threshold, that should allow you to run operations safely (now whether your AHJ accepts that or not is another issue).
    The reason you don't want a 6% or lower threshold is you don't want a threshold so low that you hit it during normal operations. Then it just becomes a nuisance and might not be noticed when a real problem is happening. Our $450 RKI sensors needed calibration after 6 months or so. They were being triggered multiple times a day. No alarms since the calibration. That illustrates two things :
    1. All gas sensor based alarms need periodic recalibration. If the AHJ sees the alarm installed, they are going to ask for calibration records.
    2. I don't know that the alarm threshold should be, but do know that when our alarms dipped below 10%. it was too low

     

  5. You can use another cheaper alarm if
    1. The alarm can be calibrated
    2. The range is suitable for your use
    3. The sensor being used is stable enough that it doesn't drift
    Even the RKI PS2 needs to be periodically calibrated. We used 2000 ppm Hydrogen and 4000 ppm Hydrogen as surrogates to calibrate at 10% and 20% LEL of ethanol as recommended by RKI (though my research indicated that it should have been 2800 ppm and 5600 ppm Hydrogen).

    You need to match the LEL equivalence. 10% LEL of ethanol is the same as 9% LEL methane, 13% LEL propane, or 14% LEL n-butane. Double those for 20% LEL ethanol.
    An off the shelf alarm at 5% of methane will trigger at 6% LEL ethanol. Not sure if you really want that.
     

    1 hour ago, bluestar said:

    While more expensive alarms like the RKI PS2 are fully certified and calibrated, it is not clear they will be any more useful than a cheaper combustible gas LEL detector. There are many on the market today meant to detect methane/butane/propane. The cross sensitivity of the detectors used for these between ethanol and butane or methane is close to 1, hence they will likely detect ethanol vapor at the same levels as these other gases. Also, the LEL for these gases ranges from 1% to 5%, and ethanol is 3.3%, so an alarm designed to go off at 10% LEL for general combustible gas is likely to be suitable for use with ethanol. Some of these can be purchases for less than $20, and in addition to an audible and visible alarm, may have a relay output. Is there any reason why one or more of these can not be used instead of something like the RKI PS2 that costs $400+?

  6. RKI PS2 with exhaust fans is the way to go.
    Just be sure to calibrate them every six months or so. It's a relatively simple process outlined in the manual.

    On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 8:57 AM, HedgeBird said:

    Just found this previous thread that seems to point me in the right directions..

    Looks like the RKI Ps2 might be what I need.

    • Thumbs up 1
  7. I agree with the sentiments expressed earlier, "DO NOT run the still unattended or remote". Even the remote probability of something happening when unattended which you can't control can cost dearly.

    Typically you should design your system and heat input for bringing to boil in 1 hr or so. It is a simple calculation of the amount of heat required to bring your system to boil, the heat transfer efficiency and the max available power. If for some reason you don't have enough power available (not enough amps/boiler too small) then there is another solution available :

    Use a pre-heater. We have an effluent tank where we keep last run's hot effluent. It has an agitator and lots of copper coils. When filling the still, the wash is pumped through these coils. And it comes to a boil in 45 minutes !!

    If you don't have effluent, you can heat up water in a tank to pre-heat the wash. Essentially you are stretching your peak heat usage over longer time by heating the pre-heater.

  8. 1. You don't need a servo control. For precise steam control, you need to use a multi-turn globe valve, not a ball valve
    2. Is your boiler control ramping up and down as you open and close the valve ? Or is it turning on and off with the valve in the same position ? What is the turndown ratio on your boiler burner ?
    If you are not constantly opening and closing the valve and the boiler is cycling, then it might be an issue with the turndown with your boiler burner. If you are using too little steam, the boiler pressure will go to the max and it will turn off. Then you have to turn it back on.

    18 minutes ago, Patio29Dadio said:

    We just turned on our 1.2MM Btu steam boiler and have been very happy with our hot and fast stripping runs, but we are struggling to control still boiler temp for our finishing runs.  We have a very good Bray Flow-Tek v-port ball valve for steam to the jacket, but thinking we are going to need a thermostat-controlled servo on top of that valve.  I was hoping we could find a manual valve position that does the trick, but we are seeing too much variable boil as the boiler control keeps ramping up and down to deliver steam. 

    Just interested in other distillers experience and solutions here.   I am going to talk to the boiler company too.

    • Thumbs up 1
    • Thanks 1
  9. Buying from reputed vendors who are active here, I assumed the pumps had the right seals/diaphragms for use with high proof alcohol in distillery.

    Do you ever open and clean your pumps ? I am wondering if others might have this issue too

    1 hour ago, Dehner Distillery said:

    We use pumps like this. The key is to have the correct seals and diaphragm.

  10. We have been using the G70 explosion proof pumps for pumping alcohol for the past two years.
    I recently opened one of the pumps for cleaning and found the diaphragm breaking down.
    This was used for pumping low wines (after stripping run) to the stills, so no solids.
    I know these have been advertised as okay with alcohol, but it doesn't seem so.
    Has any one else experienced the same issue ?

    I have emailed the supplier I bought these from about replacement diaphragms.

    image2.jpeg

    image1.jpeg

  11. We have been using the $450 PS 2 model for the last one year. Had the manufacturer set the alarms at 10% and 20% LEL of ethanol. Each alert light/alarm also turns on a relay, so you can hook up a fan to turn on automatically. We got the 115V version and our exhaust vent fan is connected to the relay to turn on automatically at 10%.

    On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:53 PM, Jeffa42 said:

    Anyone used the RKI GX-2012?  They told me today they can calibrate it for ethanol prior to shipping and it would be a solid vapor detection device at $995.  Anyone have any experience with it?  

    They also offered up a less expensive option, the PS 2 Model for about $450, but it has no display, only 3 alert lights, where the others will give much greater detail.  Any info is appreciated.  

     

    • Thumbs up 1
  12. Is anyone aware of any TTB requirements for date/batch lot serial number identification on bottles ?
    One of the label vendors mentioned that we need this on the label (and they can provide it), but I can't find any information anywhere about this.

    I am aware of the case labeling requirements as outlined in
    §19.488   Marks on packages filled in processing
    §19.489   Marks on cases filled in processing
    §19.490   Numbering of packages and cases filled in processing

    but none of the COLA BAM guide or 27 CFR 5.40 mentions anything about serial numbers/batch ID/date on the labels.

  13. Is it possible for a distiller to sell directly to retailers when getting started ? Did any of you do this when you first started producing ?

    While the AB 1295 permitted craft distillers to sell directly to consumers (single-tier) since 2016, it seems California ABC Act has always permitted a two tier  system for California manufacturers ...

    § 23363. Licensed manufacturers of distilled spirits originally distilled in this State; Sale to licensees
    Any licensed manufacturer of distilled spirits originally distilled in this State may sell them to any person holding a license authorizing the sale of distilled spirits.

  14. Wondering if we could report this on Google. Most of the people are finding them via Google Search.

    On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 1:34 PM, Fred70 said:

    I can't believe I fell for their scam. After figuring out that they don't answer emails and the phone number listed on their website doesn't work, I checked the web and found your forum with the warning about oakbarrels.com. I called my credit card  bank and blocked this "retailer", so they can't run another charge. I'm hoping I will get my money back from the bank. The saying "it's to good to be true" should be taken seriously. Whoever is behind that scam is doing it for years now and the website has not been shut down. Any ideas what to do to prevent them to find another victim?

     

  15. Hi,
     We are looking for a used bourbon barrel vendor who will stand behind their barrels (if they leak). Several barrels from our current vendor have been leaking from the head despite filling with hot water and all. And the vendor who had earlier told us that they'd replace the barrels is now dithering.
    After weeding out the usual suspects dirtcheapbarrels and oakwoodbarrels, we are considering Kelvin Cooperage and Country Connection
    Kelvin Cooperage appears to be an established rock solid supplier.
    While Country Connection has been selling barrel racks for a while, it seems they've  started supplying barrels only recently (they posted on ADI in October).
    I was wondering if anyone has bought barrels from Country Connection and what the experience has been like.

  16. @ViolentBlue Did find that some of the black stuff on the towel we were trying to scrub it with, turned bluish green. So I suspect it might be copper salts as you suggested. Will try the PBW followed by acid and again PBW as you suggested. Thanks so much for your help.

    1 hour ago, ViolentBlue said:

    the black build up would most likely be copper salts, nothing to be afraid of. not likely they are remnants of the manufacturing process, but if you are really concerned do a full cleaning regiment, start with a hot caustic (PBW) wash to remove any residual oils, rinse with clean water then a cold acid to break down the copper salts.

    if you have a CIP recirculate it, if not, glove up and get scrubbing by hand.

    if you heat the acid it becomes more effective,  but even a mild a acid solution can do a lot of damage to the skin when hot, so be very careful.

     

  17. @meerkat, @Silk City Distillers, the condenser is above the flange so it is 5" above the parrot liquid level (per the attached picture) for drainage. What you see below the flange is the stand, with a drain from the condenser tapering to the 1" tri-clamp tube at the bottom. The simplest solution would be to put a tri-clamp tee to vent up from the bottom tube as @Dehner Distillery had suggested. Ideally the vent to start above the parrot liquid level (in the 5" space between the bottom of the condenser), but trickier to fabricate now that everything is in place. Just drilling a hole in the 1/8" thick stainless steel wall of the stand to the drain without a drill press would be a nightmare.

    @Southernhighlander will send you an email. We are in San Francisco bay area.

  18. @whiskeytango,
      we are just running water now for testing, and the condensed water is cool to touch. So I doubt any of the vapor is not condensing.

    3 hours ago, whiskeytango said:

    It looks like maybe its not cooling all the vapor back down to liquid and its forcing a bubble out the parrot.  As mentioned a breather would help but it might just start spilling out vapor into the air.   Id put a breather on first and see if all the vapor is condensing back down and if it is still pulsing then add a surge breaker. 

     

    Good luck that looks scary

     

     

     

  19. All, thanks for the input on this issue.

    @Silk City Distillers,
      Here are some pictures and a video of the parrot/condenser and another one showing how violent the bubbling gets. It seems to be the air in the system which is escaping.

    parrot bubbling.mp4

    @PeteB, if I bypass the parrot initially, I am wondering if I might miss the initial cut-in for the heads. Also I won't know the temp for the condensate to adjust the cooling water.

    @Southernhighlander, It is a bunch of tri-clamp connections. However I wonder if the air vent will have to be somewhere higher than the height of the jar so air can escape above the fluid level.

    @GeekSpirits, lots of cooling water running.

    @meerkat, 1 inch pipe coming down from the condenser. As the video shows, it seems that the air builds up and eventually breaks through.

    parrot bubbling.png

    parrot condenser.JPG

  20. The output from the condenser comes straight into the parrot, with a bypass valve on the bottom. I'll post a picture later today when I am back on site.

    5 minutes ago, Silk City Distillers said:

    Does your parrot have a surge breaker/vent tube?  Post a pic.

     

  21. We are testing our new production pot stills/condensers with water and there is violent bubbling/turbulence when the condensate starts for the first 10-20 minutes. I am assuming this is dissolved air escaping, and trying to figure out how to eliminate it before the parrot. We have air vents (to vent air) on the steam jacket, but the still is closed except for a 0.8 psi press relief valve. This is puzzling as I have experienced nothing like this in the small 5 gallon still used as a proof of concept. This is so bad that it would have broken any hydrometers/thermometers in the parrot.

    I suspect this would happen with CO2 and air dissolved in wash runs too. Do we need to put a vent before the parrot ? Or is this a technique issue, because we'd run it slowly initially to prevent the still puking (due to the foam) ?

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