PeteB

I did miss a step. I studied this subject at University nearly 50 years ago, but as expected some details don't come back spontaneously. I felt there must be something missing and that is why I posted for help. Cheers Pete

I have been asked by a neighbouring distillery for some numbers he can use to counter a ridiculous request from our local authority regarding build-up of ethanol fumes in his bond store. I haven't read all this thread recently, it is late here in Australia and I need to get to bed. My conclusion is similar to Silk's conclusion, except I don't believe alcohol vapour will pool in a hot distillery because of dilution with air by thermal air currents.( probably discussed earlier on this thread.) ................................................ My calculations and response to my neighbour The lower explosive or flammable limit for ethanol air mix is 3.3% at 25 deg C. This number found on several internet sites. Your floor area is 360 square metres times height of 4.5m giving an air volume of about 1,600 cubic metres 3.3% of 1,600 is 52.8, say 53 cubic metres or 53,000 litres of ethanol The whisky in the barrels is about 64% ethanol So about 82,000 litres of whisky would need to evaporate and all of it remain sealed in the shed before it could potentially catch fire and probably explode. You say it is at capacity with 100,000 litres in the bond shed. Maybe I am misunderstanding the 3.3%. IS THAT 3.3 LITRES OF ETHANOL LIQUID EVAPORATED INTO 100 LITRES OF AIR ?? (please feel free to check my maths, I am wondering why people get so worried about the vapours. Spilled liquid is much more dangerous) Also, Ethanol fumes are often quoted as being 1.5 times heavier than air so it will sink and follow drains and low areas and possibly find an ignition source, then flash back to its source. 1.5 is Vapour density, it is ethanol vapour with no air present. But ethanol vapour very easily mixes with air and becomes diluted. The air/ethanol mix is only very slightly heavier than air and is dispersed and diluted by even slight air turbulence. PLEASE SHOW ME WHY IF YOU THINK I AM WRONG.

Most spirits need copper contact in the still. If built from all stainless you will most likely need to put a lot of copper inside, main reason is to react with sulfur that would otherwise cause a turnipy note

Below are some extracts from TTB requirements. I make a coffee liqueur which has very much in excess of 600 mg of solids per 100 mL I distill off 250 mL in a glass lab still, if I boil off any more than about 70% of the original volume I find that my condensate goes cloudy and the apparent ABV readings start dropping. I assume that solids are being evaporated as the boiling point increases, and are condensed into my collection flask so re-obscuring the true ABV. My understanding is 30.32 (c) says the sample must be distilled until there is only 1 or 2 mL left in the flask, but it does not mention the size of the sample. If the original sample was 250 mL<which is quite common, that 1 mL would be charcoal. § 30.32 Determination of proof obscuration. (a) General. Proof obscuration of spirits containing more than 400 but not more than 600 milligrams of solids per 100 milliliters shall be determined by one of the following methods. .................. (b) Evaporation method. ........................ (c) Distillation method. Determine the apparent proof and temperature of the sample of spirits and then distill a carefully measured sample in a small laboratory still, and collect a quantity of the distillate, 1 or 2 milliliters less than the original sample. The distillate is adjusted to the original temperature and restored to the original volume by addition of distilled water. The proof of the restored distillate is then determined by use of a precision hydrometer and thermometer in accordance with the provisions of §13.23 to the nearest 0.1 degree of proof. ................ § 30.31 Determination of proof. Return to Top (a) General. The proof of spirits shall be determined to the nearest tenth degree which shall be the proof used in determining the proof gallons. (b) Solids content not more than 600 milligrams. Except as otherwise authorized by the appropriate TTB officer, the proof of spirits containing not more than 600 milligrams of solids per 100 milliliters of spirits shall be determined by the use of a hydrometer and thermometer in accordance with the provisions of §30.23 except that if such spirits contain solids in excess of 400 milligrams but not in excess of 600 milligrams per 100 milliliters at gauge proof, there shall be added to the proof so determined the obscuration determined as prescribed in §30.32. (c) Solids content over 600 milligrams. If such spirits contain solids in excess of 600 milligrams per 100 milliliters at gauge proof, the proof shall be determined on the basis of true proof determined as follows: (1) By the use of a hydrometer and a thermometer after the spirits have been distilled in a small laboratory still and restored to the original volume and temperature by the addition of pure water to the distillate; or (2) By a recognized laboratory method which is equal or superior in accuracy to the distillation method. ........................................

I don't recall ever seeing Liebig condensers hooked up in series. To me it seemed logical that is the way to get the the "coolant" to a very high temperature and at the same time get the condensate output cold enough. Surely I am not the first person to figure that out!!

Paul, you make me think I should patent my design, but I am sure it must be used elsewhere. The condensers on my continuous stills are as described 5 posts above, a long set of Liebig condensers in series. The coolant for the condensers is the feed stock(wash, beer, wine or whatever) The cold (room temperature) wash travels in the opposite direction (counterflow) to the vapour and condenses it, by the time the wash reaches the height of the still it is almost to boiling point, then it drops into the top of the stripping column. With enough length of Liebig and adjusting the feed rate there is no need for any extra cooling. If the feed wash is hotter than the desired temperature of alcohol output then a short section of Liebig could be added the the output end of the condenser and run a small volume of external coolant through it. Let me know if any readers are having trouble visualising this and I will do rough sketch this weekend.

If anyone has an issue with enough economical cooling water I suggest you consider a continuous still, at least for the stripping run. With the correct simple design they need NO = ZERO = ZILCH cooling water and no chiller unit. Continuous stills sound complicated and expensive but a stripping one is very basic and should be much cheaper than a pot of similar output. And they use way less heat energy and so are much cheaper to run.

Paul, I am not quite sure, I think you are describing what I know as shotgun condensers, many tubes inside one shell. My condensers are Liebig, just one tube inside one slightly larger tube, like the ones you have on your very small stills. If the image attached, this is like what I am talking about. I have them in 10 foot lengths, the vapour travels along the inside tube, for my 2,000 litre stills the first internal tube (copper) is 2 1/2 inch inside. There are 8 lengths that are connected together in series, for convenience they attached to a wall in a zig zag pattern. The diameters for each section is reduced because the vapour velocity reduces as condensate is formed. The outside tubes are insulated to retain the heat picked up, so I get almost boiling water output for later use. If the input cooling water is a bit warm then add a few more sections of Liebig

Here is an interesting article by Cowdry who was, maybe still is, on this forum, that he wrote back in 2011 http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/buffalo-trace-demonstrates-another-way.html This is the way I have been souring my mash for the last 11 years, it is possibly the sour dough bread method mentioned earlier in this thread. I only occasionally add some of the previous fermentation. Also mentioned above is using 100% backset, I tried that about 4 years ago in a single malt. It produced a huge amount of very interesting flavours. It is still maturing in barrels, probably for another year. I will decide then if I bottle it as a 100% sourmash or blend it with regular single malt whisky.

Hi Paul, what design are your condensers that you use to end up with the hot water? I build most of my own equipment. (I am in Australia) My condensers are tube in tube counterflow and are insulated on the outside. The water I get out of the end of the condensers is almost boiling, at least 95degrees C, 203F. If the available cooling water is a bit warm, then you just need longer condensers and, as you have said, possibly a very small chiller. With a long enough condenser a 500 gallon still charge will only need 500 gallons of cooling water and you end up with 500 gallons of water at close to 200F (assuming good insulation)

There is apparently a method that combines refractive index with density that can directly measure ABV containing sugars (obscuration) As most would know the density increases with addition of sugar but decreases with addition of alcohol making hydrometers useless. But refractive index increases with the addition of both sugar and alcohol. Using both measurements and smart math the ABV can be calculated. BUT as far as I am aware the method is not government approved. The link below is for a device that apparently does the job. Looks expensive unless you are doing thousands of samples. http://scisol.com.au/product/alcotest/?fbclid=IwAR3MHrF2p0nMHVwilPnbQW10wgv-SGZZdP7sTWEQ3o_igLBqE6BGOAphZmk

I did some very interesting distillation of sulfured wine a couple of months ago. Some bulk wine was double distilled at another distillery using simple pot still. The sulfur fumes on the first run were very strong. Calculated additions of H2O2 were made during the run to help knock it out. More H2O2 was added during the spirit run. I did the stripping run of my share of the wine through my continuous copper stripping column. No H2O2 added. Very surprisingly there was no sulfur smell and a test of the sulfur level in the low wines was low. We did add some H2O2 during the spirit run to clean it up a bit more. The hot feed wine splashes down over copper plates, and vapors move up over the plates in the stripping column. Maybe the sulfur in the hot liquid feed wine reacts much better with the copper. In a regular pot still the sulfur/copper contact would mainly be vapor.

Interestingly I had a private tour, about 10 years ago, of the very large Scottish Cameronbridge grain distillery. They pressure cooked their grain whole, said they didn't need to mill it.

Apologies, I didn't know you were in Canada. Thanks for the 600V info, I didn't know it existed. That motor appears to be a single voltage otherwise it would have 2 different HP ratings. Delta produces more HP than Star. I don't understand 2 POLE, some motors have more. That might be why it can only be wired Star. All the 3 phase heating elements I have seen have 3 separate elements and can be wired star or delta. Delta gets you way more heat but if the individual elements are only designed for Star = 346V in your situation, they won't last long if you wire them Delta = 600 V The voltage should be stamped on them somewhere. Conversely if your 10Kw elements are wired Star but are stamped 600V they will heat up much slower. I have come across that mistake 3 times in the last few years. (I am not a qualified electrical engineer, I just learn stuff because I have been around the block quite a few times, might retire one day but what would I do?)

I would like to be educated. I understand 3 phase in Australia but the USA system is more complex. From what I know your regular voltage line to line as you call it (phase to phase I call it ) is 210 V or 120 v phase to neutral. You also might have access to line to line in some places of 480 Volts and the line to neutral will be 277 V. STAR wiring gives you the lower voltage DELTA gives higher voltage. Check the voltage on the plate of the appliance. I can't find any information about 600 Volts, it may be a special transformer fitted for a previous industry at your site. DO NOT USE ANY OF MY INFORMATION ABOVE without consulting with a licensed electrical contractor

We mill all the grain beforehand. We use a roller mill set a lot finer than brewers are using but would be quite course compared with almost a flour that I assume you use. We dump into the hot water as quickly as possible which may seem counter intuitive to some people. If adding slowly some starch becomes gelatinized so the water gets "thicker" and ends up coating the small balls of flour instead of "runny" water being able to get between the flour grains. I did build a very simple grist hydrator that worked very well. It is an 8 inch stainless tube with a boat style propeller inside. It is about 15 inches long and mounted vertically on a spinning shaft, and is mounted a couple of inches below the water. When it spins it draws water from the surface and pushes out the bottom like a vortex. Pour the grist into the vortex and if quick enough there is only fresh water coming off the top of the mash to hydrate the grist. I have no need to use a grist hydrator since using the high temp enzyme, but with your finer flour a combination of both might work well.

For a rye mash I start with a high temperature Alpha-amylase (SPEZYME ALPHA) added to strike water at 90+ degC {194F} Cool to 72 C {160F} and add malt and Glucoamylase (GA 400) and Cellulase (OPTIVIN CELLUMASH) The Glucoamylase was the first enzyme I found that significantly increased yield. When I went...................... I have now trialed an additional enzyme Cellulase which works wonderfully at getting rid if that final viscosity which only started when we used the SPEZYME ALPHA. Haven't worked out if alcohol yield has increased but the sweet spirit notes have returned and the burnt note completely gone. Great taste is far more important to me than yield of ethanol.

Higher temperatures than usually recommended gives us better yields. Strike temperature 90 - 92 Celsius works works well for me with un-malted oats, rye and barley

Most distillers I know follow a more Scottish method where Fores and Heads are not separated. What some of them do is dispose of all that first cut about every 10th run, instead of disposing a small amount of Fores every run. I guess it is because I have been on this forum for about 10 years that I do the same as most of you and dispose of a small amount of Fores after each run. (I don't throw them out, I have a direct fired still and use as fuel) I have read that many Scottish distilleries just keep recycling the Fores+Heads. I did read an article by a journalist where he explained mathematically why the Fores did not build up. The math was a load of rubbish. I think the reason they can get away without disposing of the toxic methanol is because there is very little formed when fermenting malted barley. It and other undesirables will build up in the Fores for a time, but as concentrations increase there will be more left in the Heart. The system stabilises over time but the methanol concentration is still less than health standards. Also those more volatile compounds found in Fores probably evaporate from the barrels quite quickly as Angel's share. If anyone would like to comment on my reasoning above please do so. Cheers, Pete

Just to be clear, does your mash consist of un-malted corn + un-malted wheat + Alpha + Beta? No malted grain? I am not an enzyme expert but I have been experimenting with them for years. Maybe reasonably pure alpha and beta are not the best at breaking down wheat starch to fermentable sugars. Malted wheat has its own specific enzymes. Also high start gravity does not necessarily mean high fermentable sugars, the high final gravity could mean non-fermentables caused by incorrect enzymes. I will follow to see what others have to say.

Hi Jedd, I somehow missed this reply from you. I will look up the names of the enzymes I am using and get back. I hope you are keeping safe with the current situation the world finds itself in. Particularly nasty in your country.

I have tried a lot of different types of shippers including custom cut styro a little like you have shown above but the only only type that I have not had breakages with are inflatable air tube bags. Example in this link. https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Bottle-Packaging-Air-Bag-For-Express_62404912908.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.1.162713edoDqMzi&s=p&fullFirstScreen=true Unlike USA, Australians ship direct to consumers, a lot of alcohol around the country and overseas through the postal system. With current travel restrictions the postal system is getting overloaded and I am sure there would be more breakages Haven't heard of anyone having breakages with these air tubes. Ideally they should be in a box to prevent sharps causing punctures. But each tube has its own valve so if one gets punctured the whole thing does not collapse.

Most of the Australian and Scottish distillers I know end up with 3 products at the end of the spirit run. Most common terms I hear are Fores, heart, feints. It appears as if many US distillers end up with 4 products. Is this the order Fores - Heads - Hearts - Feints? Also often hear ........ - Middle cut - Tails, but in general is it Fores or Heads that come off first?

I purchased a mini head for my Enolmatic to fill the smaller bottles, very happy with it. (I hope you are keeping safe, I hope to catch up again some time)

Your reply should be "Why did you choose a house XXXX you dumbass? You're a total newb and you have never built a house and know nothing about it." Research + research + research ...............................