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Direct Flame Fired stills


Valley Spirits Lee

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I have been looking at new stills and have found a number of them are direct fired, (flame against the copper holding the distillate) instead of a water jacket. I have heard of scorched flavor from this but since there are a number of these out there...

I am wondering how many are using these and is there a practice that avoids scorched flavor?

Is scorched flavor an issue with direct flame?

I would appreciate any opinions and very much appreciate hearing from those who are using direct fired stills.

Thanks,

Lee

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It depends, I'm no expert as I always try to build stills with water as a buffer, but are you going to put fermented washes in this or already stripped spirits?

If it's new washes then I believe you can get a scorched flavor, if it's spirits that are already stripped then you'll have no problem.

Just remember the hazard of having open flames near a big still is very dangerous.

One way to avoid getting scorched flavor is to make sure the wash is fully fermented and there is very little residual sugar left, then you can filter it with the larger buon vino wine filter to remove all the particles of stuff suspended in the wash. This would severely minimize the scorching.

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I have a Col. Wilson direct fired still. No agitation. No scorched flavor except for the one time I ran apple lees too thick. They burned down and the spirits came out a brownish color. Had to sand the crude off the bottom of the still.

The folk in the Christian Carl seminar talked about 'heat stress' from direct firing (requiring additional aging), but I'm not convinced the surface temp of the copper actually get that high.

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Hi

Direct fired versus waterbath/steambath has been a discussion in this industry for a while.

In Europe, the waterbaths developed because of the high amount of fruit mashes distilled there. Even with agitation it is very hard to avoid sticking to the pot and the heat stress to the mash can be quite significant. Just think of melting chocolate in a waterbath versus over a direct flame - same principle. However, this problem is not limited to fruit mashes. Grain mashes are just a bit more liquid and still prone to sticking. If you are only putting stripped runs through it (and now my question would be - where is this other still with the waterbath and why not just have it for both runs?) or NGS you won't have the sticking but honestly I wouldn't want to be around that still.

Bottom line is, direct firing is a technique of the past. If you want to produce high quality spirits you either have a steambath or a waterbath.

All the best,

Robert

Kothe Distilling Technologies Inc.

5121 N. Ravenswood Ave

Chicago, IL 60640

http://www.kothe-distilling.com

http://www.kotheconsulting.com

info@kothe-distilling.com

(312) 878 7766

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Ah. Caveat to what I said about my unagitated Col. Wilson still. Wine and wash only. Too thick, convection mixing stalls and you're done. Maybe permanently, as charcoal isn't easy to get off copper.

And I only run one pass. No spirit runs, as that idea scares me, too.

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I appreciate all of your responses. All very good information.

I will admit I had an idea about this before posting but was not certain of it, and there are so many of you with far more experience than I that I would be a fool not to; 1. Ask, and 2. Listen.

I take away from all the answers this

Direct fired is certainly not the favorite but as long as;

1. No solids or sugars in any wash you are distilling. (a small amount might be ok if there is an agitator running the entire time of distillation to keep anything from sticking to the bottom - some experimentation may be in order).

2. You control the temperature well so you don’t get the bottom of the pot red hot.

Everything should be fine.

It would be wise to modify the still with a water bath or better yet a steam jacket if possible.

As for the direct fired vs steam;

unfortunately the cheapest entry into this craft is direct fired. I understand how dangerous this is but also do use a fired still with a water bath (built myself - but many others for sale are direct flame fired).

Anyone who is a novice in this should really understand how even the smallest leak of vapor, or dripping of spirit near flame is not good in any way.

If you have a flame fired still you should have a procedure that you do not leave the still even for a minute or you invite problems.

Again,

Thanks to all of you.

Lee

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And based on the reasons Robert mentions, the traditional production of cognac is direct fired and therefore, obsolete. smile.gif

True indeed, Cheryl, direct firing has hardly been relegated to obsolescence in all the distilling districts of France. There, it is not only alive and well, but it is compulsory as a matter of law to distil with wood or gas flame in Cognac, Armagnac and Calvados. From Robert's viewpoint, however, it is not a method to consider because of his involvement in the sales of steam and water bath equipment. One cannot discount direct-immersion electric as means of directly heating the substrate. No scorching!

All the best,

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Hi

Direct fired versus waterbath/steambath has been a discussion in this industry for a while.

In Europe, the waterbaths developed because of the high amount of fruit mashes distilled there. Even with agitation it is very hard to avoid sticking to the pot and the heat stress to the mash can be quite significant. Just think of melting chocolate in a waterbath versus over a direct flame - same principle. However, this problem is not limited to fruit mashes. Grain mashes are just a bit more liquid and still prone to sticking. If you are only putting stripped runs through it (and now my question would be - where is this other still with the waterbath and why not just have it for both runs?) or NGS you won't have the sticking but honestly I wouldn't want to be around that still.

Bottom line is, direct firing is a technique of the past. If you want to produce high quality spirits you either have a steambath or a waterbath.

All the best,

Robert

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man. -the dude The Big Lebowski

The comments below are about professionally made stills with thick copper.

Direct fire stills make some of the best spirits in the world (MaCallan, All Cognacs, Some of the best Rhums...etc). If you don't intend to barrel age your spirits and make only fruit schnapps than sure go right ahead and use steam or water bath. I like all forms of heating myself I don't write off direct fire use instead I think you should use the right tool for the right job. Not everyone is looking for a efficient distillation if we were we would all be making vodka. In fact many of us are looking for the opposite we WANT an inefficient distillation so we pull over components that add to the complexity of the final product. One school of thought even goes as far as saying that wood and coal fire are superior to gas because gas is too even in its heating and wood and coal create random hot spots that add to the complexity of the maillard reactions in the pot. This all goes with the understanding that you can't be running high RS batches in your still, and I recommend that you temper ideals about production with the convenience of steam and waterbath.

-"Bottom line is, direct firing is a technique of the past. If you want to produce high quality spirits you either have a steambath or a waterbath."

Just curious Robert you rep for a still manufacturer, does your company make only make steambath and waterbath stills? :)

BW

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As i'm in the building stage right now maybe I can get some opinions, don't want to hijack the thread though. I would like to use heating elements directly in the wash which would have already been stripped and diluted down to 40% ABV. If I use four 12,000 watt elements is there any danger as far as explosions? I've made still before with elements directly in the wash but only at 4500 watts, didn't know if the higher watt elements would make a difference as far as safety. To me the answer is obvious as the alcohol is on at 40%, so it should be safe, but would like to know from other people to make sure as it's a safety thing.

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Fellas,

Before we all jump down Mr. Birnecker's throat, recognize that he's specifically talking about putting an entire mash----whether it's fruit or grain----with all the solids in directly into the pot.

He's just trying to help. I have little doubt that Kothe can build you a direct fire still. I know every still manufacturer I've spoken with offered that option. I think that we could all agree that waterbath or steam is a more flexible option, no?

I have to say that you better think long and hard about what you're distilling, and more importantly, what you may eventually distill in that pot before you elect to go with direct fire. Many of you will elect to distill many different styles of spirits over your career.

Just an opinion.

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Well said!

Keep in mind as well that there are those among us (i.e. distillers) that are producing fine product and have been producing fine product for years using direct-fired stills. These include producers of virtually every type of spirits ever made. There are also some among us that firmly believe that direct-fired stills changes the flavor of their product for the better (and no I'm not one of them ... though they could well be correct).

Heck, most of the smaller distilleries in Europe (and elsewhere) use direct-fired stills. For that matter, three of the four stills going into my new plant are direct-fired.

Bottom line is, as Denver Distiller just said ... make sure you plan ahead when purchasing a still, that goes for heat source as well as still structure (nothing worse the trying to get solids out of a still designed solely for liquid washes ... if you're putting solids into your still (mash, fruit, herbs, whatever), then you had better consider both what the ramifcations of direct-heat might be to those solids AND how the heck your going to get those solids back out of the still once you're done with your run.

Lastly keep in mind that the producers of modern steam-jacketed stills want you to buy their stock-product. They are salesmen after all (not that Christian Karl, B-Holstien and etc. don't make nice stills ... they absolutely do).

S.

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Just in case anyone is wondering, I now have a 45 gallon Carl steam jacketed pot still. And I know of at least one person that has a Kothe still that they're very happy with. So there's more than one way to make spirits.

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To respond I'm not talking about making fine spirits I'm talking about making some of the best spirits in the world, and these are done with direct fire including running with a mash in the pot. I have been in this industry long enough to see a running theme on this forum where a small vocal contingent say you should run steam or water bath. That is fine but people need to know that there are other methods out there that work well, are safe ,and are not going to explode into flame. That said yes direct fire stills are more of a specialist still (less versatile) but as the above post states you should be very clear on what you intend to make and get the best tools to realize that product. I myself am in the camp of having several stills that do specific things very well instead of have one still that does everything ok.

BW

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Bottom line is, as Denver Distiller just said ... make sure you plan ahead when purchasing a still, that goes for heat source as well as still structure (nothing worse the trying to get solids out of a still designed solely for liquid washes ... if you're putting solids into your still (mash, fruit, herbs, whatever), then you had better consider both what the ramifcations of direct-heat might be to those solids AND how the heck your going to get those solids back out of the still once you're done with your run.

S.

Tirador makes an excellent point- plan ahead when selecting your heat source.

As a thermal fluids expert here are my two cents worth on the topic-

* Steam/heat transfer (HX) fluid bath:

Pro's, Most flexibility,you can distill anything with these heat sources as long as their isn't some historic "must be open flame" requirement.

* Typical commercial systems are going to include a PID temperature control unit that will allow you to control how fast you heat up initially and exactly how much heat goes in during distillation- this makes everything more repeatable and allows the distiller to spend less time watching the still.

* Faster heating (sometimes) Generally there is far better heat flux (amount of heat that can be transferred into what you are heating) with steam and HX fluids than in a water bath. This has to do primarily with temperature gradient but can also be influenced by flow of your HX medium. Turbulent flow increases heat flux.

* Won't burn your wash, If you have your temperature program worked out correctly its impossible to burn anything.

* Easy to make explosion proof

Con's

* Expense- Generally significantly more expensive than direct flame and water bath

* Steam- Steam can be very dangerous if the proper precautions aren't followed.

* Water bath:

Pro's, best suited for distilling higher proof, lower boiling point.

* simple to make, easy to maintain, holds steady temperature well without need for PID heater control, absolutely will not burn

Con's, lowest heat flux- water bath temperature is limited to the boiling point of water- you can add salt and other chemicals to raise it some but not appreciably. If you are attempting to distill a very low proof wash (10%) its going to take FOREVER because the temperature gradient from bath to wash will be minimal which directly relates to heat flux. This is not a recommended heating method for reflux type stills.

Direct Flame

Pro's, simple, abundant, faster heat up than water bath

* can be run on anything that burns

* historic- you can pretend like you are George Washington stoking his whiskey still

Con's,

* explosion risk

* dirty (if you are using something other than gas to fuel it)

* burning

* less control, more heat fluctuation in wash = more labor.

I have used all these types of heating over the years. That said plans for my current R&D still project include an oil bath which I will group with the steam/HX fluid category. Nice thing about oil is you get most of the advantages of steam without the pressure. The trick is to find a good cheap food safe high temp oil that's not likely to catch on fire and burn your distillery down. I'd be curious if anyone else uses an oil bath still.

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For oil, might be best to use an industrial silicone (I think that's what they are) oil. Non-flammable at the temperatures you're working at, and last a very long time. Vendome has a small 30 gallon oil based still.

If using a food grade oil, maybe the addition of a small biodiesel plant might help with disposing the used oil. laugh.gif

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We work with a few small batch (450-700 gallon) direct fire stills. They make very elegant spirits right off the still that also age lovely. These stills are an absolute joy to work with. Obviously you have to have a heads up when you have RS and be safe about your set up and outfitting the still. We distill with quite a bit of lees and run the still long and low. We do not struggle with scorching or burnt flavors, it is not an issue in our stills.

That said my own personal passion is to distill fruits with pits in and mash with grain in. Obviously direct fire in not an option for these approaches. It is rewarding to work with the direct flam but limiting also.

Robert makes great points about the value of a steam jacket and they are right on, but if you are willing to play the game that direct fire takes it can be a blast.

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I have a Wilson direct flame heated still. I used it at my old place quite successfully, for wines into brandy and rum from a molasses wash. I liked the results so much that I will have a separate distillery in my new facility to use the direct flame still, but I am ordering several steam jacketed stills for my main production. Different types of stills produce different product.

As others have said, you can't walk away from a direct flame still. Someone must be physically present at all times. I have also found that sometimes, right in the middle of the heart, you can get off flavors coming across for a short while. Being physically present and tasting the run frequently, can lead to some fantastic spirits.

I also feel that in a direct flame heated still that more of the oils and varying components pass over. This can be a good or bad thing. You have to stay on top of the spirits run, but if you are attentive, and run it slow, the oils that transfer over seem to lead to a product that ages quicker, and with more depth. I have made rums that continued aging in the bottle after the barrel aging. They improved for up to a year after. I recently had a group re-taste some rum and brandy that they had first tasted well over a year ago when it had been in the bottle for a few months, and their findings showed just how much the spirit had mellowed and improved in the bottle.

As for quality, I have had almost every one of the top spirits and rum experts in the world try the rums from the Wilson still, and give me amazing feedback. Comments like "Wonderful", "One of the best rums I ever tried", etc. So, quality is as good as what you make of it.

In a year or so I will have collected more info about quality differences between direct flame and steam jacketed stills, as I plan to run some of the same batches split among the two types of stills, and compare.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Some excellent insight is posted here.

Thanks to all of you, especially those Artisans speaking of experience. Like you I only desire to make the best no matter how many sleepless nights I have.

I really like this forum and the group of people on it are so knowledgable and forthcoming.

Thanks again.

Lee

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