Possibility of oversaturation of rum/vodka distillers?

[Guest sensei]

I'm researching and I, obviously, don't know the answer. Nearly every new micro-distillery I've discovered (save for Anchor) makes rum or vodka. There are already giants in spirit and it seems to me that with every new distillery going into this market, that it is becoming saturated. IIRC, Pritchard's Distillery in Kelso, TN purchased their still from a micro distillery from somewhere in New England making vodka because that distillery learned that they could buy vodka cheaper than actually making it themselves.

Do I have a legitimate concern? Is there really enough room in the US to have the big Rum/Vodka players AND small craft distillers as well? Should a distillery also have a second line, like a brewery, just in case?

[Andrew]

If something about your product would let you make a compelling case to a vendor why they should remove another product from the shelf and put yours up instead, then the category's not too full for you (in my inexperienced opinion).

There are a many permutations possible in the creation and treatment of rum, allowing you a lot of room to tailor a unique product. Several ADI members have managed to make distinctive unflavored vodkas, a category that by definition doesn't have much room for variability. You bring up a perfect rum example - Prichards. From his distillery I can drive fourteen hours northeast to Maryland and find his product on the shelves, and fourteen hours south to Dallas to find it. He's got a quality rum, made differently from the big players' offerings, that wins awards and customers. And although recipe is the easiest clear point of differentiation for us little guys, successful product positioning can involve finding a unique niche in message, presentation, price, or target market.

All that said, the turnover in vodka brands at retail is jarring.

[Whiskey Taichou]

What about the local connection? My hometown has lots of small coffee shops that are alternatives to starbucks. I have never heard anyone say is the coffee market saturated? Of course it is, but a new connection to your customers is not. What is your story? What is your connection? Do you think the microbrews are oversaturated? They have used creativity to broaden the horizons of the entire market.

[Guest sensei]

All that said, the turnover in vodka brands at retail is jarring.

That's what I'm finding out. I don't know enough to say which spirit is a viable market and which ones make a great "hobby" and are fun to do but simply don't have sustainability, much less offer even a chance of dreaming about wealth.

What about the local connection? My hometown has lots of small coffee shops that are alternatives to starbucks. I have never heard anyone say is the coffee market saturated?

Actually, I have. Three Starbucks near me are closing and over 600 will be closed nationwide. Clearly, coffee became saturated.

Do you think the microbrews are oversaturated?

It depends. In some geographic areas, I'd say yes. There is no way I'd move to Seattle or Portland to open a microbrewery considering those markets. Further, people drink less spirits than they do beer, although someone out there might be able to knock out a 40oz bottle of vodka over dinner...but I doubt it.

[will]

Further, people drink less spirits than they do beer, although someone out there might be able to knock out a 40oz bottle of vodka over dinner...but I doubt it.

Actually, I've seen an unusually large Polish dude do this once, and he didn't die!

This is a specialty market. The dynamics of this market are similar to other markets over long periods of time.

Let's consider beer. Starting with the introduction of the railroad, then refrigerated rail cars, and finally refrigerated trucks, local breweries in larger towns were able to extend their market reach to become first large regional dominant players, then large dominant national players. My college education and our family's fine home in a very exclusive neighborhood was, in fact, paid for largely by my father's investment in a local brewery shortly before it was purchased by Peter Hand - which was later purchased by James Howard and re-named Meister Brau, which was later purchased by Miller. Economists call this event "economic concentration." It expresses what we've seen in many other markets from automobiles to airplanes to beer to salty snacks to .... you guessed it, spirits.

And it totally sucks!

And the sucking sound you hear is the gigantic vacuum in the market place that's left behind by these cataclysmic events. (okay, they’re not cataclysmic, but it sounds better that way.)

If Americans were willing to eat Wonder Bread, there would not be Whole Foods, or Trader Joes. Wait a minute – Americans ARE willing to eat Wonder Bread. The truth is that it is the market for Wonder Bread that is saturated…and look at that, it doesn’t stop Semifreddi’s….hmmm. That’s a new discovery! (I’ll have to crack-open a Coors Light Silver Bullet.) Markets have segments or more correctly, strata. Wonder can make a Semifreddi’s-like product, but they won’t because that strata is too small. They may, however, buy the Semifreddi’s company at some point, but that’s a different story.

We do compete with all the Bacardi/Diageo/Allied Domeques of the world, because bread is bread, beer is beer, and vodka is vodka…but we play differently, ours is a different game. We can survive because we're different.

My conclusion is that anyone can make a spirit, possibly even a good spirit, but not everyone can make a business of spirits. As I was recently reminded by a person whom I consider to be one of the more enlightened in beverage tasting: it is not about making a spirit; it’s about brand building, sales and marketing, and all the business of business.

The ability to make a standout spirit is necessary but not sufficient.

Don't worry about saturation, the shelf space is far too dynamic for that.

May the megatrends be with you, Sensei.

Will

[Whiskey Taichou]

Actually, I have. Three Starbucks near me are closing and over 600 will be closed nationwide. Clearly, coffee became saturated.

True, starbucks coffee became saturated. We are not as artisan distillers going to be the starbucks of the spirits world for a long time if ever. Nevertheless, my little local coffee shops got beat up by the big chains, held on and are still going strong. They are a local fixture, and though will never have an ipo, may have good longevity and make those small business owners a decent ROI.

[Paul G]

Actually, I have. Three Starbucks near me are closing and over 600 will be closed nationwide. Clearly, coffee became saturated.

In contrast to this, I'm seeing a surge in mom-n-pop coffee carts popping up. I've taken the time [1] to talk with the proprietor of at least three of them to get an idea of how business was going.

As I'll be cutting my teeth for many moons to come, I find it easily overwhelming and daunting to embark upon what's a fairly esoteric [2] undertaking. I try to keep the wonder bread/whole foods analogy (loosely speaking) in the forefront of my mind to keep it in perspective. Every time I go to the ultramegagrocery and see Tito's vodka or St. George absinthe, I'm encouraged. Catching a glimpse of Clear Creek spirits of any flavor keeps me optimistic [3] and moving forward. The fact that Clear Creek sells out of their single malt whisky every...single...year tells me that there is definitely a receptive market out there.

Cheers,

Paul

[1] In the few scant moments I could get a word in, as they were constantly busy

[2] It's amazing how many of the general public have no idea that there's a difference between a brewery and a distillery. When I mention my aspirations, they ask me what kind of beer I'll be making. When I corrected one person by saying "...not beer, spirits, you know, liquor." the response was "oh, like mead?"

[3] I *heart* Clear Creek and everything that Mr. McCarthy has done. Call me a groupie, but taking their distillery tour left me giddy...quite literally...and inspired.

[dgpoff]

This discussion is missing one critical element or thought. A small distiller should be able to make a better/different product than a large distiller (assuming we are NOT talking about processing NGS into a Vodka.) Differentiation is they key to success in this market. So many raw ingredients, so many fermentation methods and choices, so many method variations, so many approaches to filtering or finishing. Over-saturated - maybe when it comes to industrial or NGS based vodka, but not when it come to true craft distilled vodka. There must be thousands of products or flavors we have all yet to see.

Colorless - maybe, odorless NOT, Tasteless Bullshit. Different is great!

Don

[Paul G]

I think my major hesitation would not be so much creating a unique(ish?) product, but once it's on the shelf, having it be found. Among a shelfload of 100 different bottles of vodka, what (besides an ostentatious/garish bottle) would have it stand out? Here's where I'll confess to being a sucker for a clever bottle.

Time to bone up on marketing, I guess.

Mind you, this isn't to be a cynic, but I'm just trying to think of possible angles that we'll encounter and expose them for further discussion.

[grehorst]

I think my major hesitation would not be so much creating a unique(ish?) product, but once it's on the shelf, having it be found. Among a shelfload of 100 different bottles of vodka, what (besides an ostentatious/garish bottle) would have it stand out? Here's where I'll confess to being a sucker for a clever bottle.

Time to bone up on marketing, I guess.

Mind you, this isn't to be a cynic, but I'm just trying to think of possible angles that we'll encounter and expose them for further discussion.

With spirits most people will buy what they know (and have been drinking for years unlike wine where a good chunk of the populace will pick it "'cause it's got a pretty label"). So the problem as I see it is not "how do I make my product stand out on the shelf" (cause it likely won't) it really is "my product is good and has a great story, how do I inform consumers about my product?". You can't just make a product and put it on the shelf hoping someone will buy it, you have to convince them to buy it before they get to the store (or bar).

First, come up with a great product- if you don't think it's great no one else will either. Then the real work begins- meet people, get them to try it. Ask them to request it at bars and in stores and keep doing this 20 hours a day 8 days a week. Once it starts getting tired and repetitive do it some more. Competing against the big guys is not a part time job- you have to be on all the time.

[Paul G]

First, come up with a great product- if you don't think it's great no one else will either.

Check

Then the real work begins- meet people, get them to try it. Ask them to request it at bars and in stores and keep doing this 20 hours a day 8 days a week.

Go out drinkin' with the boys...a LOT! Check.

Once it starts getting tired and repetitive do it some more. Competing against the big guys is not a part time job- you have to be on all the time.

I can only hope that the point where I reach burnout coincides with my brand becoming a household name so I can switch tactics

Thank you again for the sage advice.

Incidentally...if it seems that my goofy responses are simply me being flippant, that's not the case. I'm taking every word seriously. It's just my way of attempting to paraphrase in a way that I'll remember....and have a little fun. I know there will be plenty of un-fun along the way, so I make it where I can.

[Guest sensei]

Big Red Liquor: The Realities of Retailing

http://distilling.com/8.mov

If anyone hasn't seen this on the video page, you need to watch it. He is a retailer from Indiana who talks about shelf space and how vodka is going to be the toughest market to enter expecially if you're late. Bourbon, scotch, and tequila being the best market to enter. Personally, I'd like to see another Tennessee whiskey other than Jack and George, especially Jack because I find it a marketing driven product rather than a product driven product. Naturally Jack goes hand in hand with H-D, another marketing driven product rather than a product driven product.

However, if you're not in the Southwest, how likely is it that you can be a tequilla distillery? Virginia offers a single male whiskey, but how many others can go all malt and age for 4-5 years? Spirits, like the speciality auto industry ain't for the feint of heart.

[Paul G]

If anyone hasn't seen this on the video page, you need to watch it. He is a retailer from Indiana who talks about shelf space and how vodka is going to be the toughest market to enter especially if you're late.

Indeed (hence this topic) but there may still be some open angles. I think capturing the local market among mom-n-pop stores is a good one. How cool is it to buy a vodka/rum from your home town? Well, at least that's where I'm leaning.

Bourbon, scotch, and tequila being the best market to enter. Personally, I'd like to see another Tennessee whiskey other than Jack and George, especially Jack because I find it a marketing driven product rather than a product driven product. Naturally Jack goes hand in hand with H-D, another marketing driven product rather than a product driven product.

True, but remember, you have to be in Tennessee to make a Tennessee Whiskey...it's out of bounds for those of us in the remaining 49 states.

However, if you're not in the Southwest, how likely is it that you can be a tequilla distillery?

Zero chance...same as being a Cognac distillery outside of France.

Appelation rules leave that one to Mexico exclusively. That was actually enforced with Skyrocket distillery in Temecula, CA. with his agave spirit. Even without calling it "Tequila" he got hit. He wanted to spin it with a local twist by calling it "Temequila" but that was too close so it was shot down. They at least parlayed that into a mixer, which isn't subject to the same appelation rule.

Virginia offers a single male whiskey, but how many others can go all malt and age for 4-5 years? Spirits, like the speciality auto industry ain't for the feint of heart.

And that's how we come full circle back to vodka/rum/white spirits...no aging time required. You gotta start somewhere...but then, so did Stranahan's. They put the word out there well enough that their entire stock of whiskey was sold before it was released. Then again, Rogue's dark rum is aged only 6-9 months prior to bottling and they've gotten a good response. Just goes to prove that older does not necessarily mean better (doesn't disprove it either, but yanno...). Even so, putting some aside from each batch for aging will contribute to a stock that can be labeled "private reserve" or somesuch...more marketing fodder

[Guest sensei]

Indeed (hence this topic) but there may still be some open angles. I think capturing the local market among mom-n-pop stores is a good one. How cool is it to buy a vodka/rum from your home town? Well, at least that's where I'm leaning.

But is that going to be a large enough market to cover your costs AND make a profit? The whole law about not being able to distill in a residency really does add one hell of a financial burden. I understadn the reasoning behind it, but still.....

True, but remember, you have to be in Tennessee to make a Tennessee Whiskey...it's out of bounds for those of us in the remaining 49 states.

As it stands now, its not enough to just be in Tennessee. You have to be in Coffee, Moore, or Lincoln counties. I really can find no, even remotely, justification for this TN law. I know the South has a backwards reputation, but Davidson County/Nashville really is a nice place to live and do business. If only....

Appelation rules leave that one to Mexico exclusively. That was actually enforced with Skyrocket distillery in Temecula, CA. with his agave spirit. Even without calling it "Tequila" he got hit. He wanted to spin it with a local twist by calling it "Temequila" but that was too close so it was shot down. They at least parlayed that into a mixer, which isn't subject to the same appelation rule.

More hoops for no reason. Like using "Single Malt" for Scotch, there must be a new "marketing speak" to come up with to be able ot make and sell product without encountering the wrath of the lawyers. The guy from Indiana seems to think product will sell.

Then again, Rogue's dark rum is aged only 6-9 months prior to bottling and they've gotten a good response. Just goes to prove that older does not necessarily mean better (doesn't disprove it either, but yanno...).

I don't know if this is true, but people at both Jack and George have told me that when it comes to whiskey, its not a matter of age. Its a matter of maturity. They get asked all the time about why Scotch is so old and American whiskies are so young in comparrison. Their response has been that KY/TN gets hotter and colder than Scotland (which it true) and therefore this wide swing of temperature causes whiskey here to mature faster and be ready for bottling sooner. There is no magic to Scotch because its aged longer. Its aged longer simply because it takes so long for the whiskey to mature. If Jack or George kept barrels for 15-20 years, the product that would come out of the barrel would simply be undrinkable. At least, this is what Jack and George people have told me. I haven't been to KY, but I assue the stories would be the same there.

I'd like to see a Tennessee whiskey aged in sherry casks myself. And, the ways the laws are currently written, its like the government is actually pushing people to do what Pritchard did outside the law (even though alcohol manufacturing laws are always economic in nature, nor moral) in order to experiment to see what can be done. It seems as though alcohol is the only industry where the government is NOT pro-business. Am I wrong?

[delaware_phoenix]

I don't know whether you're wrong or not, but Prohibition pretty much changed the perception that everyone in this business is a crook, and that it's a way to make a "quick buck". I don't believe that either is true, but that's the way the regs are written. That's why there's all the gauging whenever spirits are dumped, mingled, or transferred.

I'm not expecting the regs to change any time soon.

[Guest sensei]

I don't know whether you're wrong or not, but Prohibition pretty much changed the perception that everyone in this business is a crook, and that it's a way to make a "quick buck". I don't believe that either is true, but that's the way the regs are written. That's why there's all the gauging whenever spirits are dumped, mingled, or transferred.

I'm not expecting the regs to change any time soon.

ADI may indeed be involved in this and I am simply unaware. However, if not, it seems to me that a primary goal of ADI is to engage is strong public relations that promote the fact that modern craft distillers are not in any way associated with the Mafia. Craft distillers are upstanding members of the community, and they have the government investigations to prove it, who are not to be feared. I cannot help but be convinced that if ADI were actively engaged in positve PR, attitudes and laws could change.

[Paul G]

But is that going to be a large enough market to cover your costs AND make a profit? The whole law about not being able to distill in a residency really does add one hell of a financial burden. I understadn the reasoning behind it, but still.....

Sure, why not? There's no hard and fast reason to start out with a 500 gallon uber-reflux still-of-the-ages. Take Delaware Phoeix's example: a 30-ish liter alembic. You gotta start somewhere, and I'll rehash the old cliche': "you gotta walk before you can run."

As it stands now, its not enough to just be in Tennessee. You have to be in Coffee, Moore, or Lincoln counties. I really can find no, even remotely, justification for this TN law. I know the South has a backwards reputation, but Davidson County/Nashville really is a nice place to live and do business. If only....

My initial understanding was that one had only to be in the state of Tennessee and add the charcoal mellowing/"Lincoln County Process" to what would otherwise would be Bourbon. This is a federal reg, not TN.

More hoops for no reason. Like using "Single Malt" for Scotch, there must be a new "marketing speak" to come up with to be able ot make and sell product without encountering the wrath of the lawyers. The guy from Indiana seems to think product will sell.

"No reason???" Single malt is not "marketing speak" exclusive to Scotch. It's simply any whisk(e)y that's made purely of malted barley and distilled at a single distillery. Otherwise, Suntory, Clear Creek, and numerous other single malt producers never would have made it past their COLA.

I don't know if this is true, but people at both Jack and George have told me that when it comes to whiskey, its not a matter of age. Its a matter of maturity.

Agreed, "age" does not equal "maturity"

They get asked all the time about why Scotch is so old and American whiskies are so young in comparrison. Their response has been that KY/TN gets hotter and colder than Scotland (which it true) and therefore this wide swing of temperature causes whiskey here to mature faster and be ready for bottling sooner.

Not true at all. Hotter maybe, but colder? Nope.

There is no magic to Scotch because its aged longer. Its aged longer simply because it takes so long for the whiskey to mature. If Jack or George kept barrels for 15-20 years, the product that would come out of the barrel would simply be undrinkable. At least, this is what Jack and George people have told me. I haven't been to KY, but I assue the stories would be the same there.

You're missing a huge factor in the equation here. Bourbon (the TN guys do this also) is required to be aged in unused barrels. Scotch doesn't have that restriction. As far as I know, there's no Sctoch that actually uses unused barrels. They're almost exclusively used Bourbon and Sherry barrels. The chemical composition of the barrels is significantly different between its unused and its used state. Remember also simple business. The longer you leave your spirit in the barrel, the more it costs you. It's a liability and not an asset until you're handing the customer their receipt and it's left your warehouse. Less aging equals a quicker ROI. Same applies to aging at a higher %ABV. It's economy, not quality that drives that.

I'd like to see a Tennessee whiskey aged in sherry casks myself.

That would be quite nifty, although with current labeling standards, it would simply be "whiskey, aged in sherry barrels, made in Tennessee."

And, the ways the laws are currently written, its like the government is actually pushing people to do what Pritchard did outside the law (even though alcohol manufacturing laws are always economic in nature, nor moral) in order to experiment to see what can be done. It seems as though alcohol is the only industry where the government is NOT pro-business. Am I wrong?

You sound more frustrated than anything. There's no reason why you can't experiment a little. There will always be hoops to jump through, whether it's OSHA regs for your facility, naming regs for your product, or what have you. I'm more inclined to know the laws front and back to figure out how to work the system to my advantage than to pour my energy into a potentially futile crusade to fix what might appear unjust on the surface...only to find out that a little deeper digging reveals some better founded basis for that piece of red tape. Don't get me wrong, I have no use for unnecessary bureaucracy, and I'll be as vocal as the next guy in terms of crying foul. I just don't want to be the guy yelling at people driving in my lane when I'm the one going the wrong way down a one way street.

[Guest sensei]

"No reason???" Single malt is not "marketing speak" exclusive to Scotch. It's simply any whisk(e)y that's made purely of malted barley and distilled at a single distillery. Otherwise, Suntory, Clear Creek, and numerous other single malt producers never would have made it past their COLA.

You misunderstand. Single malt is "marketing speak" as it is Scotch just the same. But since its not made in Scotland, it has to be called something else, hence single malt. Glenora Distillery in Canada had hell just to use the name Glenora and this was after being able to make Sco.....single malt whiskey. It could not be marketed as "Scotch". It had to be marketed as Single Malt Whiskey. Same with Sky Rocket's Tequila, not Tequila. It has to be marketed as Blue Agave Spirit.

You sound more frustrated than anything. There's no reason why you can't experiment a little.

And I'm not the only one frustrated by asinine laws. Phil Pritchard experimented a little outside the law because the way the law is currently written, it is simply easier to do something illegal to get it right. I fully accept that this is the way it is but I'm not about to call it sensible, reasonable, intelligent, or even remotely fair. That's all.

[Paul G]

You misunderstand. Single malt is "marketing speak" as it is Scotch just the same. But since its not made in Scotland, it has to be called something else, hence single malt.

I don't believe it is I who is misunderstanding. "Single Malt" is not marketing speak. It's a specific term for a specific way of making whisky, regardless of its nation of origin. Remember, "Scotch" is simply another word "Scottish" in the context of whisky. People have just abbreviated "Scotch Whisky" to "Scotch." Nobody in their right mind is going to take a single malt whisky made in Canada seriously if it's labeled "Scotch" whether it's a single malt or not. It's akin to labeling a whisky made in South Africa "Canadian."

Single malt is not the same as Scotch because not all Scotch is single malt. You can't forget blended, vatted malt, and grain.

Glenora Distillery in Canada had hell just to use the name Glenora and this was after being able to make Sco.....single malt whiskey. It could not be marketed as "Scotch". It had to be marketed as Single Malt Whiskey. Same with Sky Rocket's Tequila, not Tequila. It has to be marketed as Blue Agave Spirit.

I sympathize with the difficulty with using the name "Glenora" in that it's where they are and it's a local name. I can't, however, understand the difficulty with not being allowed to call something that's not Scottish "Scotch." You don't see anybody having difficulty with not being able to call their brandy "Cognac" do you? Same thing...as it is with Tequila, Armagnac, Calvados, and the list goes on.

And I'm not the only one frustrated by asinine laws. Phil Pritchard experimented a little outside the law because the way the law is currently written, it is simply easier to do something illegal to get it right. I fully accept that this is the way it is but I'm not about to call it sensible, reasonable, intelligent, or even remotely fair. That's all.

Just so I follow the reference, please enlighten me as to the particular issues that Mr. Pritchard has been up against. I'm not familiar with his story.

Anyway...

It's really a matter of picking one's battles. There's infinitely more injustice in the world than not being able to call your single malt "Scotch."

Besides, in the role of the microdistiller, we're catering not to the frat-party swill-sluggers. The big guys can have that. Our goal is to reach out to those who appreciate the higher quality, artisan-made, hard to find, specialty spirits. Remember, too, that these people are generally well versed in their spirits. They already know the difference between single malt, blended, Scotch, Irish, specialty cask matured, yadda yadda yadda. We'd look like idiots in their eyes if we arbitrarily labeled (assuming we'd even be allowed to) our products in such a way that contradicts what is understood by laws, tradition, and hundreds of years of history, just because we're not happy with what we believe is hoity-toity marketing-speak.

[Guest sensei]

I don't believe it is I who is misunderstanding. "Single Malt" is not marketing speak.

Its not a major issue, but it is you who is misunderstanding. Marketers have to come up with terms when appelation laws force it. Skyrocket could not use the term Tequila despite that be exactly what it was. Sparkling wine is another term that had to be created to market California "champagne". You seem to think that I'm referring to marketers pulling something from their posterior such as "Fine Corinthian Leather", which is not the case. I really thought that I was quite clear. its not nearly as big a deal as you are making this out to be.

You don't see anybody having difficulty with not being able to call their brandy "Cognac" do you?

Because marketers had to create a new term for similar products. Really now, you act like you're making a salient point in an argument that no one opposes.

Just so I follow the reference, please enlighten me as to the particular issues that Mr. Pritchard has been up against. I'm not familiar with his story.

Long story short, Phil wanted to make rum for personal use. Doing so is against the law. Phil broke the law to be a better distiller before he opened his business whereas a homebrewer can experiemnt to his heart's content before getting a product right. My point is that the way the laws are current set up, they practically force people to break the law to better their craft.

There's infinitely more injustice in the world than not being able to call your single malt "Scotch."

You're being fixated on an idea never offered. The guy in the video said that Tequila would sell, but if not from Mexico, one cannot legally call the product Tequila. I'm just pointing out that the guy in California is having to jump through more hoops, hoops that make getting into this industry unduly hard if you want to make something other than vodka. I am not sure just what your point is.

We'd look like idiots in their eyes if we arbitrarily labeled (assuming we'd even be allowed to) our products in such a way that contradicts what is understood by laws, tradition, and hundreds of years of history, just because we're not happy with what we believe is hoity-toity marketing-speak.

Paul, I really have to ask if you even read and thought about my post at all or if you're just naturally full of hubris? I ask because if you're going to talk down to people, you actually have to be in a higher position not just imagine yourself to be there. Otherwise, you just come across as a pompous ass dancing with your strawmen as though it were a block party....and I brought a match.

[Paul G]

I read carefully and thought (perhaps too much) about each point I made. Perhaps I thought the appelation rules (at least in the context of Scotch and Tequila) were pretty much a no-brainer and really aren't that big of a deal to work with. I still fail to see how not being able to call something that doesn't fit a certain classification and therefore having to call it something else makes it so much more work? How exactly are there more hoops by virtue of not being able to call something by an established trade name that it doesn't fit?

Who knows...perhaps I'm missing your point every bit as much as it appears you're missing mine. Call it talking down, call it hubris, call it what you want, but I still assert that compliance with appelation rules isn't as complicated as you're saying. Even Vodka has criteria to comply with (an entire other thread exists on simply whether or not they can be met with a pot still).

Either way, Sensei, we're at an impasse and perhaps somebody with more mash under their fingernails than either of us will hand me my ass and we'll call it done. I stand to learn every bit as much by being corrected as I do from my own research...it's happened plenty of times in the past and will continue to happen. Never once did it happen by calling anybody an ass.

[cowdery]

There are no federal regs with regard to Tennessee whiskey except the obvious one, it has to be made in Tennessee.

The restriction to certain counties is state law, which simply permits distilling on a county-by-county basis. I spoke to someone not long ago who is trying to get it legalized in Davidson. It was Phil Pritchard who got it done in his county, so it's not prohibitively difficult.

Although a craft distillery in Tennessee wouldn't be required to use the Lincoln County Process, it might be a good idea since that's just part of the image of Tennessee whiskey, but there is no regulation, state or federal, dealing with that.

[Guest sensei]

I read carefully and thought (perhaps too much) about each point I made.

I'm just mulling ideas and sometimes going on in a stream-of-consciousness sort of way. Hopefully, my posts get people thinking. I'm far from a raving lunatic. They are fun to watch in court sometimes raving on about the Constitution concerning a simple speeding ticket though.

Perhaps I thought the appelation rules (at least in the context of Scotch and Tequila) were pretty much a no-brainer and really aren't that big of a deal to work with.

J.B. Waggoner would disagree. I watched his video before I posted my comment. Its quite clear really because unless you have a knowledgeable salesman and knowledgeable customer, you're going to have someone ask for "Tequila" and J.B. won't get a first look. Most customers simply aren't that sophisticated and so not being able to make it wasy for them is a problem, one that can, I believe, be overcome, but a prolem nonetheless. Granted, its not something to have a nervous breakdown over.

Who knows...perhaps I'm missing your point every bit as much as it appears you're missing mine. Call it talking down, call it hubris, call it what you want, but I still assert that compliance with appelation rules isn't as complicated as you're saying. Even Vodka has criteria to comply with (an entire other thread exists on simply whether or not they can be met with a pot still).

That is not a point that I was addressing. That is why I said that you were being condescending.

Either way, Sensei, we're at an impasse and perhaps somebody with more mash under their fingernails than either of us will hand me my ass and we'll call it done. I stand to learn every bit as much by being corrected as I do from my own research...it's happened plenty of times in the past and will continue to happen.

I too have much to learn and I have no problem admitting such.

Never once did it happen by calling anybody an ass.

I'm not interested in seeing anyone having their ass handed to them. I only ask for and expect common courtesy.

[Guest sensei]

There are no federal regs with regard to Tennessee whiskey except the obvious one, it has to be made in Tennessee.

Have certain corn grain content percentage that escapes me now and be filtered through the charcoal, if one wants the product to be called "Tennessee Whiskey" and not just whiskey from Tennessee - I suppose it would be called.

The restriction to certain counties is state law, which simply permits distilling on a county-by-county basis. I spoke to someone not long ago who is trying to get it legalized in Davidson. It was Phil Pritchard who got it done in his county, so it's not prohibitively difficult.

Only because Lincoln is one of the three counties where it is currently legal. Pritchard was going to open in Manchester in the old Ruby Flour Mill (Coffee County) because George is already there. However, the bible thumpers got whipped up into a frenzy. This is not being judgmental, but what actually happened. Phil's wife will tell you the same thing.

[Paul G]

From what I recall reading, Tennessee Whiskey is exactly as Bourbon with the lone exception being the charcoal mellowing/Lincoln County Process. If this holds true, then the mash bill would also hold true (>51% corn).

I generally defer to Straightbourbon.com for everything Bourbon (including the exceptions).

"Small World" aside...well whaddaya know, I never really noticed before, but there's a bunch of goodies in Straightbourbon's FAQ from ol' Chuck Cowdery. I guess it's akin to buying a car and you alluvasudden notice the same one all over the place where you didn't before. I'll just shuddup and listen now