wash vs grain-in mash

[jeffw]

Trying to decide if distilling wash or grain-in seems better to me. As I see it, distilling grain-in with a with grist the consistency of flour will give you the highest yield. Thought here is that the cell walls of the grain are completely broken down, you are not lautering so almost no sugar is left behind in the mash tun. As far as grain usage this is very efficient, other than disposal because unless you buy a centrifuge you are pretty much going to have to put this down the drain. Is there a taste change here compared to lautering? Thinking in brewing that you don't want you wort to exceed 170-175 Fahrenheit because the husks start giving off tannins and make your wort bitter, is this an issue as you are distilling grain-in? Obviously your pot is going to exceed 175 in your distillation run. Does this result in at least somewhat more bitter or grassy white dog? From the lautering point of view, I like that the spent grains are more easily disposed of...farmer, composter, etc. The city here will allow the stillage down the drain and this is what I see all local distillers doing using grain-in distillation, I just don't like the environmental waste issue here for something that has value...to someone else at least.

From the sensory perspective, has anyone tried both using wash and grain-in that would care to comment on perceived or measured (GC or the like) differences in the distillate?

Is the yield difference after fermentation around 5-10% higher for grain-in small particle size?

One more thing, for someone trying to start on a budget and do the mash cook in there still (assuming grain-in), any big downsides beyond the obvious of tying up your still to do this?

I know that there are some posts dealing with some of these questions already, but I love any input people are willing to provide.

Thanks and cheers,

Jeff

[porter]

Regarding using still as primary fermenter-

".... mash cook in there still (assuming grain-in), any big downsides beyond the obvious of tying up your still to do this?"

Assuming you are talking about mash cooking AND fermenting in the still, just the idea of cooking the spent yeast fallout and the yeast slurry is enough to kill that idea. You don't want the flavors that stuff puts off. Syphon some off and heat it in a pan on the stove for a try.

[jeffw]

Not thinking at all about fermenting in the still. Just a mash cook and transfer to FV.

Jeff

[porter]

Not thinking at all about fermenting in the still. Just a mash cook and transfer to FV.

Jeff

Ok......

[Palmetto Coast]

Another FYI... Whether you lauter and have spent grains, or use a finer grind you should still be able to dispose of your liquid stillage through a farmer. We have one that is eagerly awaiting ours.

Todd

[bluestar]

Well, we do exactly what you describe, distilling grain in and using the still as the mash tun before transferring to a fermenter. You will get more extraction of fusels in your tails, especially if you are using corn. We don't use flour for corn, just for the malts. The corn is flaked. And yes, everything goes down the drain for us, although when using corn, there are husks.

[Rickdiculous]

Bluestar, Please explain further how mashing in your Still adds more extraction of fusels in your tails than a dedicated mash tun? Look for someone like Palmetto Coast is talking about. If you have pig farmers near you they are most likely a source to use your spent stillage. They will take it as a liquid and add it to their slop.

Porter,

If someone is distilling grain in, as many are, how would they do it without cooking the yeast and fallout as part of it?

[jeffw]

Bluestar, how are you crash cooling from your still with grain-in mash?

[bradocaster]

We cool ours in a tank with a coiling coil. much like a home beer make, only bigger. we are plumbing a chiller in now to replace well water.

Brad

[Rob]

Regarding using still as primary fermenter-

".... mash cook in there still (assuming grain-in), any big downsides beyond the obvious of tying up your still to do this?"

Assuming you are talking about mash cooking AND fermenting in the still, just the idea of cooking the spent yeast fallout and the yeast slurry is enough to kill that idea. You don't want the flavors that stuff puts off. Syphon some off and heat it in a pan on the stove for a try.

Distilling a fermented medium with yeast present is not necessarily a negative technique. A study by Suomalainen and Nykanen in 1966 showed that the distillate from a fermented medium with yeast present contained higher proportions of isoamyl alcohol and ethyl decanoate as compared with that obtained from distilling a fermented medium with the yeast removed. Isoamyl alcohol will react with acids during maturation and result in esters (isoamly acetate being the most dominant, giving banana and pear notes). Ethyl decanoate is also an ester associated with fruity notes. So, if these notes are desired in your product, distilling a fermented medium with the yeast present might be beneficial.

[bluestar]

Bluestar, Please explain further how mashing in your Still adds more extraction of fusels in your tails than a dedicated mash tun? Look for someone like Palmetto Coast is talking about. If you have pig farmers near you they are most likely a source to use your spent stillage. They will take it as a liquid and add it to their slop.

Sorry, poor English on my part. Mashing in the still doesn't do that, but using grain-in does.

We are in an urban setting, the only close by "animal farm" is the Chicago zoo, and we are discussing the options with them.

[bluestar]

Bluestar, how are you crash cooling from your still with grain-in mash?

We have a bain marie still. We dump the hot water in the bain marie, and then run cold water through it, while agitating. Not the most efficient, and we are planning to eventually get a pump-through heat exchanger set up one day, so we can clear the still quickly for the next mash or distillation. In fact, any suggestions on the design or sources for the heat exchanger would be appreciated: currently planning a tube-in-tube arrangement.

[jeffw]

Bluestar,

I would have to agree that tube-in-tube is probably the way to go. In the short run, you might try a counter-flow home brew setup or a herms coils immersed in a tank of cool water on top of placing cool water in the bain marie if that is too slow. http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/custom-herms-coil Perhaps in the short run use this or even connect two together in a water bath. I would think for crash cooling that would work pretty well. Not the best long run solution because it smaller than ideal and the size water tank you would need is a little big and something you probably don't want next to your still. I'm planning on a 60 or 120 gallon still, doing the mash cook in the still so I am thinking about this too. I'll give you a shout when I come up with something more elegant.

Jeff

[bluestar]

Ours is a nominal 50 gallon, but actually accommodates 60 easily. Yes, we could always augment with a herms coil, but at that size, I would just make my own out of coiled half-inch soft copper. I need to do the thermal model calculation to determine how long of a tube-in-tube would be required to drop from about 145F to 105F when moving from mash tun (still) into the fermenter. Also, I would need to keep the tube large, at least 1" ID, to prevent mash from clogging. Thought of having a custom copper 1" coil fabricated that could be put into a big water bath barrel, as well.

[bluestar]

Actually, I want something like this:

http://morebeer.com/view_product/19533/102203/Chillus_Convolutus_Counterflow_Chiller?a_aid=theelectricbrewery

but with a 1" ID inner tube and TC connections for the "wort".

[bluestar]

Follow up: looks like a 1.5" ID tube 20' long will allow a single pass crash if you can get turbulent flow for both the mash and the coolant. Cost looks to be in the $2K to $3K range, depending on features. And it can be used for heat-exchanged RIMS for heating or cooling.

Ours is a nominal 50 gallon, but actually accommodates 60 easily. Yes, we could always augment with a herms coil, but at that size, I would just make my own out of coiled half-inch soft copper. I need to do the thermal model calculation to determine how long of a tube-in-tube would be required to drop from about 145F to 105F when moving from mash tun (still) into the fermenter. Also, I would need to keep the tube large, at least 1" ID, to prevent mash from clogging. Thought of having a custom copper 1" coil fabricated that could be put into a big water bath barrel, as well.

[Modernity]

Here's one of the ideas that came to mind when I was working on this problem; Plumb straight lengths of copper around the walls of the distillery from the mash tun to your fermentors, 1" copper with a 1 1/2" copper (or PVC) counter flow could be the go. It would then be a case of the minimum length needed for your climate. This wouldn't take up any floor space and would be very cheap to install. I was thinking to pump the cooling water through a truck radiator cooled with an electric fan and recycle to save water.