whiskeytango

DSP TTB application

14 posts in this topic

Was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for a TTB consultant to assist in getting our Federal permits in order? Just trying to judge if we want to pay some money and have someone else do it or save a little cash and try and hammer it out on our own.

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Dave Dunbar Consulting has a federal Treasury inspector (emeritus) on staff (that would be Dave himself). By far, they offer the most thorough DSP filings around, for the most reasonable fee! Experts at navigating the trickiest of situations. Contact dhdunbar1@gmail.com, and tell them that you were referred by Spirits Institute Puget Sound!

Good luck, and all the best toward the creation of great spirits.

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I did it myself, so it's not that hard to do. Just have your business licensed with the state/IRS, have a lease for your building, serial # for your still and have your unit bond ready. Then fill out the permits online application and plan on 3 to 5 months for the review. During the wait, meet with the city, state, fire engineer and FDA/DOA-FSD. If you feel confident that the TTB will approve your application, start your buildout so when you get your permit you can go straight to work.

If you can afford the consulting then it will go much easier. But I like to do things on my own, I learn a lot more doing it that way.

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Agreed, not so hard to do yourself, if you use the electronic application. It pretty much walks you through the info you need. The old paper submissions left it to your imagination ;-)

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Here's some tips when you're filling out your application:

First, read this: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ae3312b52c19993f69af6029957ec49f&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfr19_main_02.tpl

Yes, all of it. Then, read it again. Fun times I know, but these are the rules you need to work by so best to learn them.

Second, read this: http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/common_compliance_tax_issues-during-audits-ds.shtml

Now you're ready to fill out your application. There are some "test" questions that the TTB wants to see if you've read the above info like;

With respect to the operations of a warehouseman for Beverage use, provide description of the system of storage:

(Hint: the answer lies within the links provided.)

With respect to the operations of a warehouseman for Beverage use, give the total amount of bulk wine gallons that can be stored:

(Hint: this is not based on the size of your space, but the size of your bond.)

Hope this helps some.

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What Ross is hinting at is that a certain number of the answers to permit questions require, basically, a regurgitation or reformulation of the exact wording of the applicable regulations. At one point in my conversations with TTB, I was told as much by the representative.

If you have someone else fill out your permit, you might miss the importance of these points.

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Looking for assistance here. I am specifically stuck on this question on our application:

"With respect to the operations of a warehouseman for Beverage use, give the total amount of bulk wine gallons that can be stored"

I understand that this is based upon what we are bonded for, but, if I don't have the bond yet, how am I supposed to give a specific number for this question in the application process?

Can someone point me in the right direction here?

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Tell the truth: how much is the maximum that can be stored according to your PLANNED operations, it is the same question you have to tell your bond underwriter, give the same answer. It is NOT asking you how much you are bonded for (although they must be consistent in the end).

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so if your not required to have a bond if you expect to owe less than $50K what do you put down?

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just got off phone with ttb, they say in my designated storage area for bulk spirits how many gallons of bulk product meaning barrels aging, collection from still, wine or other spirits purchased can i possibly store. if i can fit 10 55 gal barrels then the answer is 550 gallons. You dont ever have to reach this number just letting them know your storage area capacity in wine gallons which is equal to us gallons

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Here's the thing - despite what TTB says, and I am one who says, you should ask them, you can use any area of the bonded premises to store bulk spirits.  There is, in fact, no such thing as a designated storage area within the bonded premises.  Some specialists insist there is,  and when I submit an application, and they come back and ask, I take a deep breath, don't argue, and write "bulk storage' in some hole in the diagram.   It is not a fight worth fighting.

But here is what TTB says, in its explanation of the changes it made to the regulations in 2011.  The document, by the way, was signed by the administor:

Recordkeeping accounts. All operations at a DSP are accounted for within four recordkeeping accounts— production, storage, denaturation, and processing. Since the facilities (tanks and rooms) of a DSP may be used for multiple purposes, the accountability for spirits must be maintained of necessity by appropriate records within the four accounts instead of by physical separation.

 Here is the citation on that - Federal Register / Vol. 76, No. 32 / Wednesday, February 16, 2011 / Rules and Regulations, page 9081.  Again, the document is signed by the administrator and expresses TTB official position on the matter.  So, even though I counsel asking TTB, they do not always give the straight answer. NRC specialists get this wrong.

This means, if TTB is looking for is how many barrels, etc, you can stuff into the area where you can have barrels, that's the whole damned bonded area.  The answer you got sounds good, but it is crazy.  

Now, why does the application ask for this info?  It asks because, if you have a facility for storage only, if it will not have a capacity of at least 250,000 wine gallons, you have to make an application to make an application.  See 19.56.  That is the only thing that makes the number of wine gallons relevant.  

If, on the application, you designate an area in one corner of the bonded premises for bulk storage, and then proceed to store bulk spirits in another corner of the DSP, so you can put a gin still smack in the middle of the barrel storage area, TTB has no grounds for objecting.  It's a battle we can win using TTB's own words, but winning the battle would postpone getting the permit issued.  So we give them what they ask for and then do what we must to make good use of the space, secure in the knowledge that we are doing nothing wrong.  Mr. Manfreda himself tells us so.  

Give them a reasonable number.  I do and can defend doing that.

 

 

 

 

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+1

This was the one question I could come up with no LOGIC to calculate. So, I tried to figure what would be the max I MIGHT ever want to store. I figured if there was an actual calculation and they didn't like my answer they would say so.

They did come back with how many square feet of floor space was allocated for storage. Hmmm... I would assume this means nothing without knowing the ceiling height.

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Yea.  When I teach about the regulations, I have a mantra, "It is because they say it is."  I preach it is best not to ask why, even in the face of incredulous requests.  Nike style - just do it.  I don't argue with them unless it is necessary - I know how to argue, but I want to win wars, not lose them because I was able to win a battle.   In the case of applications, winning is getting an approval ASAP.  I'm pragmatic.  

I have never been asked, how many square feet. That is, in fact, a nonsensical question.  I think the specialists work from check sheets.  In their defense, it is a way to try to keep your head above water when you are drowning.  But someone should check the check sheets to check to see if the checks for which they ask make sense.  Square feet doesn't. 

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