Interest in Continuous Stills?

[H-D]

I'm running around 1 gpm, but that would be the difference between a band heater and steam

How much heat are you inputting into your system? All I saw on your parts list was a 5500 watt heating element. Unless I'm missing something, I wouldn't think that would be enough energy to strip 1 GPM of wash.

[bluestar]

Wisconsin Stamping sells raschig rings of all types including copper. They will quote you a price based on how much you need and the market price. We haven't bought from them but are considering it. They have a variety of sizes.

www.wisconsinstamping.com

Copper raschig rings will run you $1200 to $1600 per cubic foot from a manufacturer like WS.

[Telluride]

My element is run off of a PID, but i dont think it ever ends up turning off, next time i run it i'll check how many amps im drawing off of it. The problem i see with the band heater is a much larger loss in energy, so the actual mash/beer/wine is seeing only half of that actual heat. If anything i would maybe try to run what joe d has suggested, a steam system in a continuos loop with a heat exchanger to heat the entered mash, i wont be testing this, though i would appreciate someone else to chime in who has or wants to test this.

[Telluride]

Copper raschig rings will run you $1200 to $1600 per cubic foot from a manufacturer like WS.

To fill my full column was quoted $6k i kinda laughed then called my pops(engineer) in which we came up with the dished plates idea, if anything i would use ceramic rings then add a copper catalyzer in the vapor path after the mash had entered, such as right before the condensers

[jheising]

My element is run off of a PID, but i dont think it ever ends up turning off, next time i run it i'll check how many amps im drawing off of it. The problem i see with the band heater is a much larger loss in energy, so the actual mash/beer/wine is seeing only half of that actual heat. If anything i would maybe try to run what joe d has suggested, a steam system in a continuos loop with a heat exchanger to heat the entered mash, i wont be testing this, though i would appreciate someone else to chime in who has or wants to test this.

Are you heating with a coil-type immersed heater element? I'm curious to see how it goes generating steam with an immersed element over a long period of time with tap water. One of the main reasons we strayed away from steam heating in the first place was worries about mineral deposits building up on the element over time and lowering the efficiency and potentially causing bad flavors in the output. Although I'll be the first to admit maybe we were being overly cautious, but I'm still curious to know how it holds up over the long-run.

[Dehner Distillery]

Go to lowes and buy 1/2 type m copper tubing and use a chop saw and cut your own tubing. Or spin it on the lathe and use a pie cutter.

For what I'm doing those numbers are way to low. Let's talk about .5 gpm .

Yes, use a small oil bath boiler and use the spent mash for the steam.

Just for giggles I'm building another continuous still. I'm building it and approximately 4 to 5 hours. I will post pictures and a video. This will make three continuous stills I have.

People overthink building these things a lot.. It is a super simple easy concepts. And once you know the basics you can do just about anything.

[Telluride]

I'm glad this has turned into a discussion and away from a sales pitch where we can throw around all of our ideas. Jheising, elements arent very expensive, but time is and holding up my 3000 liter fermenter to let the continuous still work its magic for 8 days just wont work, it would be quicker to do 6 strip runs and 2 spirit runs on my 500 liter still. It does bring up a good issue however, where the immersion heater should be periodically checked. I would however think that a mineral buildup would be similar to one in a hot water tank, do you notice off flavors in your hot water tap at home? I would also think the efficiency would be easily noticed, such as my temp and psi werent getting to normal that my needle valve allows. I'm thinking that I'll just add the heaters to the calender of when I clean my inline water heaters that i use in lew of a HLT. Joe, i like the idea of a mini oil bath, or even convert my existing steam to a recirculating style through my bottom heat exchanger as you had hinted at before. Joe, do you have any problems with scorching grains, the oil bath does bring it to a larger surface area, but still relatively small in comparison to the amount of heat built up. This was the whole reason to my use of steam injection.

[jheising]

People overthink building these things a lot.. It is a super simple easy concepts. And once you know the basics you can do just about anything.

Dehner, we've discussed this before—when you get beyond stripping, it's not a "super simple easy concept". When you can process 0.5 gpm into heads, hearts and tails at anywhere from 120pf to 190pf in the same, similarly sized system, then maybe you earn the right to call continuous distillation a "super simple easy concept". It's clear from this thread (and searches on the internet) that a lot of people have built highly successful continuous strippers, and that is really great to see! But it starts to thin out drastically when you get into fractionating systems.

I think it's great that we're discussing continuous stripping in this thread, because the title of the thread doesn't preclude it. But when you say "People overthink building these things a lot.. It is a super simple easy concepts" it seems to imply that those who are working on this problem are less capable than you. Let's just stop that now. You are not working on the same problem that some on this thread are working on, so please be careful when you make blanket statements like that.

I would however think that a mineral buildup would be similar to one in a hot water tank...

Not necessarily— a hot water heater is not a steam generator. Your hot water heater has a much lower duty cycle than a continually running steam generator (ie you don't normally have a continuous stream of 212 degree boiling water coming out of your sink). If the element runs "dry" because of surface boiling, it'll cake on deposits at a very rapid rate. I guess it all depends on the setup, but normally to minimize this you'd want to run very low density elements with lots of surface area.

it would be quicker to do 6 strip runs and 2 spirit runs on my 500 liter still

Arguably quicker, but at a HUGE cost. Every time you run alcohol through your still, you are losing a minimum of 1% (if you're lucky, but in most cases it's much more) of the available alcohol. When you dilute down to bottle strength in the end, the individual losses from those 8 runs compound and add up to a hell of a lot of bottles that you just poured down the drain.

Many of us in this industry seem to only be worried about speed, when what we should really be worried about is efficiency. I understand that you need a certain level of speed in order to produce a certain number of bottles to feed customer demand. But if you do the math, it's better in the long run to buy two stills that are twice as efficient and half as fast. You will eventually recover the cost of that additional still, but you will never recover the cost of the alcohol that goes down the drain.

[Jedd Haas]

If you filter your incoming water, you can probably eliminate concerns about deposits building up on the elements.

If the element runs dry, it will overheat and short out very quickly, long before surface deposits are an issue.

Elements are cheap. A 5500 watt ultra low density element is around $25. If you have a few spares, you can change them regularly for cleaning.

[jheising]

If you filter your incoming water, you can probably eliminate concerns about deposits building up on the elements.

If the element runs dry, it will overheat and short out very quickly, long before surface deposits are an issue.

Elements are cheap. A 5500 watt ultra low density element is around $25. If you have a few spares, you can change them regularly for cleaning.

Sorry, I should have been more clear— notice I said "dry" in quotes. The element can be completely surrounded with liquid and still conduct heat transfer, but the actual surface of the element at a microscopic level is "dry" with a layer of vapor. It's sort of a similar reason (in reverse) as to why you can dip your hand into a bucket of molten lead for a small period of time and it won't burn you (see Myth Busters). High density elements have surface temperatures of hundreds of degrees over boiling point, which cause this surface vapor to form. This layer of vapor will cause solids and minerals to drop out of the liquid and bake on the element. The goal is to keep the surface temperature of the element as close to the boiling point of water as you can, and to transfer the power over a larger surface area.

But I'm thinking if you have to change the heater elements regularly, doesn't that defeat one of the main benefits of continuous distillation— to be able to run continuously?

Anyway, I'm not saying you can't heat a continuous still with steam, because the majority of them are, I'm just trying to point out some potential issues to keep an eye on when you DIY. I think as long as you are using really low density elements, you may not have much of a problem. And FWIW, I'll admit I can't effectively comment on steam heating in the real-world because we don't use it ourselves, but we ran into similar issues when we started out.

[Bier Distillery]

Arguably quicker, but do you realize how much alcohol you're pouring down the drain by doing this? Every time you run alcohol through your still, you are losing a minimum of 1% (if you're lucky, but in many cases it's much more) of the available alcohol down the drain.

Is that good alcohol (ethanol)?

[jheising]

Is that good alcohol (ethanol)?

Yeah, that percentage is just for ethanol. There are other alcohols that come out too, but we can accurately measure just the ethanol with standard instruments.

An important thing to note is that you can't use a standard proof measuring hydrometer like you can with distillate, because there are all sorts of things in the spent wash (sugars, yeast, solids, oils, etc.) that will throw it off. The only way to accurately measure (that I know of), is to take a specific gravity reading of the incoming wash and a specific gravity reading of the spent wash and calculate it like you would beer or wine before and after fermentation (but in reverse).

EDIT:

I should clarify/correct that the losses will be in all available alcohol, not just ethanol. But the majority of that available alcohol lost will be good stuff/ethanol and could equal 1% or more of what you'd measure as proof in your final product.

[Dehner Distillery]

Please Mr. Jheising, I will have this conversation. When you are talking about s STRIPPING still any one can build one. Is not a blanket statement. I does not take much to build one of these things. And you know that also. It is just you are going to try to sell these. I don't want you to lose sales, so...... I am not going to bother you about this....

[Dehner Distillery]

Hello folks, if you are going to make a continuous STRIPPING still I will show you how. I can show you how to run thick mash in it if you want. Depending on the size of unit and style you want to make you can easily strip about .20 gpm- 1.5gpm. This is a massive amount that helps you break down the mash in to a smaller amount that you can very easily put in to your spirt still.

You can make a continuous still fit in the plan of your hand or as tall as the sky. Mine that I have will strip at a rate of about 1.4-1.5 gpm. It uses an oil bath boiler running at 450-500f, and uses about 80 amps , 240v single phase.

A small still that will strip at a rate of .25-.50 gpm can be built for under $600.

I will put up pics, and a video.

[Dehner Distillery]

I forgot to add that the systems I run are all Electric immersion powered, one of them has the oil bath heat exchanger.

If you had a steam boiler of just about any size preferably at least 5 hp or 10 hp you could easily strip 4-7 gallons a minute or more. Given you were able to have some of the other variables. Like ceiling height and column diameter.

[Telluride]

Just switched to a mini bain marie at the bottom of the column and it works a lot better. I welded a 2" stainless pipe thats capped off to the 4" to 2" reducer and put the element and oil into that. I'm getting foamin a third the way up the column. It wouldn't be noticed if i had a copper or stainless column but with the glass i can see it, it never gets higher but is still there. Anyone see this as a problem? Joe?

[Jedd Haas]

Maybe you could add a couple "de-foaming" plates. Someone posted a diagram of this from a German still a while back. Or some anti-foam agent could be added to the mash.

[Max Action]

Just switched to a mini bain marie at the bottom of the column and it works a lot better. I welded a 2" stainless pipe thats capped off to the 4" to 2" reducer and put the element and oil into that.

having trouble visualizing this. do you have a sketch?

An important thing to note is that you can't use a standard proof measuring hydrometer like you can with distillate, because there are all sorts of things in the spent wash (sugars, yeast, solids, oils, etc.) that will throw it off. The only way to accurately measure (that I know of), is to take a specific gravity reading of the incoming wash and a specific gravity reading of the spent wash and calculate it like you would beer or wine before and after fermentation (but in reverse).

just test it like you would a spirit with high obscuration. distill that waste stillage in your bench-top still and gauge proof of distillate with your 0-20 proof precision hydrometer.

[jheising]

just test it like you would a spirit with high obscuration. distill that waste stillage in your bench-top still and gauge proof of distillate with your 0-20 proof precision hydrometer.

Good point. Probably a better/more accurate way if you have the time and equipment.

[natbouman]

When you are you lauching a kickstarter, Jim?

[SaltyDog]

Hello folks, if you are going to make a continuous STRIPPING still I will show you how. I can show you how to run thick mash in it if you want. Depending on the size of unit and style you want to make you can easily strip about .20 gpm- 1.5gpm. This is a massive amount that helps you break down the mash in to a smaller amount that you can very easily put in to your spirt still.

You can make a continuous still fit in the plan of your hand or as tall as the sky. Mine that I have will strip at a rate of about 1.4-1.5 gpm. It uses an oil bath boiler running at 450-500f, and uses about 80 amps , 240v single phase.

A small still that will strip at a rate of .25-.50 gpm can be built for under $600.

I will put up pics, and a video.

Very interesting discussion, gentleman. Please, no one take offense, but why if one of these can be built for $600 and strip .5 gpm why would somebody pay the numbers you guys are charging (greater than $10k, right?) for one doing 1-1.5 gpm? Why not just build three small strippers? I'm just trying to understand if the difference is assembly and design work or some other factor I'm not seeing. Again, not trying to upset everyone, just trying to understand better.

[jheising]

It's a perfectly good question and no offense taken. It also highlights why I and some others get a little cranky with Dehner sometimes, because we're not comparing apples to apples here and it makes the discussion hard to follow.

Anyway, the main reason is that the one we use and want to eventually sell is a multi-draw, fractionating system, whereas the one Dehner is discussing is just a stripping still. We take in unfiltered wash of any beer or wine and output directly to heads, hearts (at up to and over 190 proof) and tails separately and continuously. As has been discussed (maybe argued) before is that this is a much more complex process than just stripping.

The main advantage of this system is that we go directly from still to barrel/bottle whereas with a stripper you still have to run it through a conventional batch still (possibly many times).

You could argue that the cost might be higher with the system Dehner is talking about when you consider the cost and labor of running a traditional still that is big enough to handle the enormous output of his continuous stripper.

[jheising]

When you are you lauching a kickstarter, Jim?

I have been asked this question probably 100 times now : )

I just don't know if it'd do well on kickstarter as it's geared to a bit of a small/specific audience. What do you think?

And really right now the issue is not money, but time. Although I guess money can buy time, so there is that to consider...

[Skaalvenn]

I have to say that I was recently dowA at Dehner and got to see his new continuous stripping still operate. For the most part he turned it on, briefly dialed in the flow rates and in a day it processed +500 gallons of fermented wash with steady 130 proof output.

The cool thing is that the stripper is ridiculously compact in size. A pallet takes up more floor space and it's only about 9 feet tall.

If I had it in my initial budget I'd pick one up in a heartbeat.

[jheising]

I'm not sure why, but it feels like some are misconstruing this discussion/argument as one still manufacturer vs. another. I'll just say it again clearly so as to put any arguments to rest. If you want a stripping still, I would absolutely say without a doubt you should consider buying one from Dehner or DIY one like it. Period.

Is that endorsement clear enough to show that this has nothing to do with some sort of competition?

This has never been an argument of one still manufacturer vs. another. I am simply saying that we should not be comparing continuous stripping stills to continuous multi-draw, fractionating stills. Period.

To compare feed rates, efficiency and outputs between the two is meaningless because a continuous stripping still relies on other traditional stills and equipment in order to make a finished product. Any direct comparison would have to take the entire system into account.