4 plate column vs two pot still runs

[KittleShine]

Has anyone tried this? When double distilling water down the low wines to 20% ABV or even less when charging the spirit run. I believe this will make a more flavorful and much smoother spirit, but of course you'll get a lot less yield per run that way when you adjust for ABV, but you can always use a much larger pot still for the spirit run, it can be quite simple and relatively inexpensive to buy or build, no steam jacket, no agitator, etc...

[HedgeBird]

Has anyone tried this? When double distilling water down the low wines to 20% ABV or even less when charging the spirit run. I believe this will make a more flavorful and much smoother spirit, but of course you'll get a lot less yield per run that way when you adjust for ABV, but you can always use a much larger still for the spirit run, it can be quite simple and relatively inexpensive to buy or build, no steam jacket, no agitator, etc...

Interesting. I always assumed that the more water you would add to your low wines the less flavor you would get as you are "watering down" the source flavor. I water mine down to 50% before a spirit run. I suppose the more water you add at this step, the less you may need to add when proofing, so perhaps it all balances out assuming you adjust your cuts on the spirit run..

[Natrat]

I don't usually add water to my spirit run unless I want to top up the still (I find my particular still is a little easier to run when liquid is to the top of the jacket) or if my low wines are above 90 proof (for whisky)

Watering to 40 proof is a trick an old moonshiner in Johnson County, NC told me about. He swore by double distillation, and used water from a particular spring to treat his low wines (what he called his "mash cookin's!) which changed the character of his 'shine.

Boys, that 'shine is what I one day aspire to! He even offered to bring me water from his secret spring, but I never got to follow up on that. I had planned to use it for a grappa, but now I look back and realize that I haven't actually tried that. I have a new recipe run going next week...maybe I'll play with that a bit.

Even though my chemistry mind is saying "this all sounds like jiggery pokery," my moonshiner mind is saying "sounds good to me, son!"

[KittleShine]

Let us know how it works out!

Speaking of grappa I bet the Noninos don't distill their Picolit Cru to 160 and then water it down

[KittleShine]

Interesting. I always assumed that the more water you would add to your low wines the less flavor you would get as you are "watering down" the source flavor. I water mine down to 50% before a spirit run. I suppose the more water you add at this step, the less you may need to add when proofing, so perhaps it all balances out assuming you adjust your cuts on the spirit run..

The water you add after distillation is (basically) flavorless so I figure if you can minimize that then the end result will always have more flavor. The extra water that comes over with the distillation will carry some flavor also, and probably effect the over all flavor profile in ways I can't know about, yet. It's just a theory to me, wondering if anyone has actual experience.

[Natrat]

I was talking to a colleague earlier today about this and he suggested something interesting....

He said "why don't you run the whiskey through the plates and concentrate the heads, then rip them off. Then open the plates and run as if it was a pot still."

I said, gee...

I'll be trying that very very soon.

[Dan P.]

Adding water to the low wines to bring them down to 20% or so before spirit run might come under "hydroseperation".

Don't ask me what it means or how it works.

[Scottyh]

lets not forget that 60 plus percent of flavor comes from the barrel

[TuftedTurtle]

I was talking to a colleague earlier today about this and he suggested something interesting....

He said "why don't you run the whiskey through the plates and concentrate the heads, then rip them off. Then open the plates and run as if it was a pot still."

I said, gee...

I'll be trying that very very soon.

I've heard of some people putting Dephlegmator above their boiler or thumper in order to condense their heads. Not sure it works that well.

-Turtle

[Falling Rock]

Consider multiple pot still or reflux distillations this way...every distillation after the first, you dilute the distillate back to 40-50% ABV. So, you have the chance to reduce some of the elements carried over from the previous. The added water is a great filter.

Every time you do that you reduce the elements carried over during the new distillation.

You also have the chance to make a "finer" cut, if you made some cuts from the stripping distillation. Some do and some don't pitch fores from a stripping distillation. But if you do, there will be less smeared into the spirit run.

I think the same happens with tails. I may not cut tails from a stripping run, but in the spirit run I feel some lower end oils were trapped in the additional water.

Simple test...take a final spirit you're just not quit happy with, dilute it and pot still it! With or without cuts, I'll bet it's better...

[Natrat]

The reason to distill twice (low wines and then spirit run) is so that there is a higher volume of heads in the mix...so that you CAN concentrate them and cut them cleanly. If you remove them when you strip, then you lose some of that benefit.

A lot depends on your column size/diameter for how well you can compact those heads. If I had a still 10 times the size of the one I have, I'd probably just do a single run...because the volume of the head/fore component is large enough to make a clean cut. I feel like when I do single distillations on a pot still the heads tend to "smear" further into what I wish were pure hearts, and I end up taking a larger proof-gallon volume of heads in proportion to the size of the wash.

I keep hearing that multiple plates "strip flavor," but my own experience is that using plates tends to concentrate flavors into distinct stages of the run. I don't think there is less flavor in a whisky that went through 4 plates...but it sure is easier to make cuts when you know the taste progression! It is possible, I suppose, that heavier (read: higher boil point) congeners could be knocked back to the wash more easily may not re-evaporate as readily...and be lost. But I think this is a minor price to pay for the increased yield of heart product, and increased contol over more sharply defined cutpoints.

Anyone making "sweetcuts" in their whisky spirit runs?

[HedgeBird]

By "sweetcuts" do you mean multiple separate cuts of the hearts?

I do this out of practicality as my hearts typically get collected into four 5 gallon contains, but the separation is arbitrary and not based on taste or flavor..

[Natrat]

I meant cutting out your tails, and after your tails has run, cutting back in and recovering some of the sweetwater (usually about 10-30 proof) back into the whisky.

[Falling Rock]

Yes, but not as deep as 10%.

I collect everything in smaller containers and when I get a tails container (between 40-35% ABV) has oils in it, I toss it. There are usually good containers (tails smell reduced) after that point.

And in the middle of the hearts...if I get a perfect container...I'll keep it out and blend it back in after the other has been through a spirit distillation.

[leftturndistilling]

This is a very interesting conversation !!...I've never heard of the "Sweetcut" strategy .... But I do live under a rock ... I'll have to experiment more !!!... Thanxxx Natrat and Red Pig ..!!! Brian

[Natrat]

Red Pig, are you saving your tails for redistillation?

[Falling Rock]

Yes...I didn't at one time, but now I do. I used to stop my collection a lot earlier than I do now. I now keep a higher percentage of heads & tails from a spirit run for redistillation, except when I catch an oily container of tails.

I believe there are a lot of "larger" operations that forgo collecting in smaller containers. Tell me if I'm wrong. I imagine segregating and storing distillate for re-distillation becomes a burden when the quantity gets above gallons...they just make a fores, terrible heads, hearts and tails collection. I now see a great value in dissecting the tails into smaller containers. There are tails and there are terrible tails. Some of the good tails come off after the terrible.

If I collect tails into multiple containers, there is usually one that is worse, sometimes blue tinted, oily, pure crap. If I catch such, I toss it with fores and rerun the other with the next strip.

I've actually watered and redistilled the good tails, by themselves, just to prove to myself that they were worth keeping for the next strip.

Again this is a very easy experiment once you save a decent quantity saved.

[Natrat]

I think most of us divert the heads into one container, hearts to another, and tails to a third...by making the cuts at the parrot. I try to size my heart container to the amount I expect (or sometimes two smaller containers if I need to move them around a lot) and collect heads and tails directly to their respective containers. I then distill the tails down to low wines about once every 3 months, and have enough low wines to do a batch of recovery spirit every 6 to 8 months. Right now, I take it to 190 and it goes to vodka, but I plan to use it for a whisky later on.

This is the reason I advocate deep, deep cuts. Because you can recover the alcohol you've made, and meanwhile your main product is yummy!