kelbor Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hello, Im trying to get a business plan going and could use some help from any operating distillery. Basically what Im wondering is how much finished product can one expect off a certain size run (and I know it will 'vary'). In other words, Im trying to figure out how big of a still to price out (which will lead to how many/big my mash tuns/fermenter/etc. equipment needs to be). I know each distillery makes different cuts on different mashes of different strength washes so I am really just looking for ballpark figures. So the question comes down to "If I load a 100 gallons of 40% wash into my pot still how many gallons of "keeping" whiskey will go into a barrel?" (I know there is 40 gallons of 100% but it will come out ranging from mid 80's% on down). I guess I would like to know the same for neutral spirits as well (Vodka). I assume you could keep a larger hearts cut on Vodka because of the ability to filter the jebezous out of it? Like I stated earlier, I realize that every singe distillery will have a different number - but is there industry standards? Am I going at still and equipment sizing all wrong? Is there another way to figure the balance sheets for production and costs/profits on my biz plan without this data? Thanks! K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmetto Coast Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 As you mentioned, a lot a possible variants exist. To make it simple, I tell folks 10% are heads, 65% hearts, and 25% tails. Again, this is super-simple without taking into account many of the variables. Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattabv Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 run with it. you can get 100's of numbers they are avg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelbor Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 As you mentioned, a lot a possible variants exist. To make it simple, I tell folks 10% are heads, 65% hearts, and 25% tails. Again, this is super-simple without taking into account many of the variables. Todd Thanks Palmetto - And that is on your average spirit run to make either brown or clear spirits (whiskey or vodka)? I know a person who might run a small beer keg pot still on the hobby level and I think they generally have a much smaller hearts cut then 65% of the total alcohol charge. The reason I ask the question here is that I imagine a better still might produce better fractions or separation (less smearing) which would make the hearts cut larger - Is this correct thinking or is the person I know doing it all wrong. Matt - when you say "run with it" do mean to go ahead and crunch the numbers using percentages as per Palmetto gave above? As a distillery consultant this is a question that you surely have been asked before right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenny Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm not necessarily the sharpest tool in the shed, and might very well be misunderstanding your questions, but for basic potstill distillation, I'd submit that you'll (conservatively) get about 5% of what you start with. Ferment 250g of 8% abv wash stripping run = 50g of 40%abv low wines spirit run = 12 proof gallons of final product (hearts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panoscape Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Another number you'll want is how long does it take to get those hearts. Some stills take 12 hours to do a full run, some take 4 hours to do the same run. Time is money, so knowing this is vital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Using Lenny's quick math, it's then a easy rule of thumb 5/8, I.e. 5% pure yield from 8% wash. Thereafter just cross multiply based on wash ABV. Example at 9% wash 5. X --- X ---- =. 45/8 = 5.63 x gallons of wash (example 250g) = 14.1 8 9 (wash ABV) Good rule of thumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumfarmer Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I don't do a stripping run for my rum production. I use freshly pressed cane juice between 16 and 20 Brix. This gives between 8.5 to 11.5 ABV wash when I get a good ferment. I do a single run on my 4 plate, side mounted column and my yield is between 10% to 14% in proof gallons. I have yet to fully charge the still with a 700 gallon run, but those numbers have been consistent on the 300-400 gallon runs. I am still working on my cuts, and I might be a little heavy on the heads, but these numbers seem way off from what I am hearing from Lenny and Roger. The still I got from Artisan Still Designs runs great and is super efficient, but I seem to be outputting twice what I should by the above numbers. Any thoughts out there? P.S. Time is really money out here in Hawaii. LP costs $5.80 a gallon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hola Smoog Trade you some NY snow for some Kona Coffee The calculation was "after" a heads and tails cut leaving a 60% hearts yield and is based on 100% Alcohol, not Proof Gallons. Your yields seem to be right on the numbers, 5 x 10 (avg wash) = 50 / 8 = 6.25 (100% ALC) x 2 (when converting to Proof Gallons) = 12.5 This is right with your numbers. Correct ? 5/8 Cross multiply X/ABV Wash (X-2 if wish to express in Proof) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Distillery Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 For the whiskeys present here, is this figuring 2x grain? 250g = 500 lb of "grain". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 All calculations are expressed in gallons. You're on your own with the mash bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelbor Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Thanks guys, that should get me started in the direction of the ballpark. Happy brewing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenny Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 For the whiskeys present here, is this figuring 2x grain? 250g = 500 lb of "grain". That is a massive variable based on your mash efficiency, how/if you are lautering, etc. I don't mind sharing that I use 650lbs of malt to yield 250g of wash. If you crushed to flour and fermented on your grain, I suspect that 500# (or maybe less) would give you that same 250g. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Distillery Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Thanks, that was what I wanted to clarify if people were willing to share. Its not hard to plug some volume and ABV into a calculator and get the theoretical grain sizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natrat Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 That is a massive variable based on your mash efficiency, how/if you are lautering, etc. I don't mind sharing that I use 650lbs of malt to yield 250g of wash. If you crushed to flour and fermented on your grain, I suspect that 500# (or maybe less) would give you that same 250g. Lenny, what's your OG yield like? I'd expect to see something like 1.077 on that, maybe as high as 1.090 if using aggressive enzymes...like convertase. Typically, I like to use smaller mash bills and lower gravs so that my wash ferments overnight. With a 1.075 or a 1.080 I'd be happy to see it finish in 3 days, but I'd expect 4. And where do you finish? The yeast I used would take a low grav wash down to .997, but high gravs would finish 1.007 or 1.010. Typically I'd use about 420 lbs of grain to get 240 gallons of wash...I lautered and used an extended sparge to hit that liquid number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumfarmer Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Thanks for the clarification Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenny Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Lenny, what's your OG yield like? I'd expect to see something like 1.077 on that, maybe as high as 1.090 if using aggressive enzymes...like convertase. Typically, I like to use smaller mash bills and lower gravs so that my wash ferments overnight. With a 1.075 or a 1.080 I'd be happy to see it finish in 3 days, but I'd expect 4. And where do you finish? The yeast I used would take a low grav wash down to .997, but high gravs would finish 1.007 or 1.010. Typically I'd use about 420 lbs of grain to get 240 gallons of wash...I lautered and used an extended sparge to hit that liquid number. My OG ends up at around 1.070 and attenuates down to 1.008-1.010 in 3 days (I usually let it continue on for 3.5-4 days) I've changed up my equipment and practices a good bit over the past few years and haven't really measured the resulting wash very accurately -- For me, 250g is more of a conservative estimate on the wash that's results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Distillery Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 1.07 to 1.01 in 3 days seems to be a miracle. What yeast? How much? Reused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenny Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 I use a fresh pitch of fermentis safspirit yeast for my malt whiskey, but i've used other yeast with similar results. I don't feel like that sort of attenuation is all that miraculous for a malt barley wash. I've experienced longer ferments with cooler pitching temps but on the high side of normal... 3 days is very typical in my production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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