Open Wooden Fermenter Opinions

[Silk City Distillers]

I had such high hopes for this thread that the two camps could meet in the middle, make peace. Instead this thread needs to be killed, beaten with a stick ... preferably wood ... no, a steel pipe.

Years ago, people didn't know what yeast was. It lived on wooden mash paddles, they had no idea that it was there. If you had the magic paddle and could make beer, you were probably a shaman, or at least the most popular guy in the village. Someone finally figured it out, there was much rejoicing. Now we can choose from all sorts of interesting yeast. The other bacteria are just as important, and you can exercise the same level of control.

I just don't see why you would leave it up to chance. I'm not saying you can't or won't get a great result, you absolutely can ... but not always.

[Dehner Distillery]

Well, that certainly explains why Budweiser puts those porous Beechwood chips directly into their fermenters, leaving them in direct contact with their beer for full three weeks.

There is a lot of behind the scene stuff that goes on in Budweiser that we don't know about. Are those chips Steamed first? Is it an extract they use? Who knows. There are some stories I could tell you about contract bottling that would make you question everything about this industry. It is not bending the rules, it is using the rules against the rules to get what you want.

James- Amen.

Dehner will not use wood for fermentation, and everyone else is always free to choose there own methods.

[Silk City Distillers]

Interesting on the beechwood, but Budweiser themselves state that the beechwood chips are added to the lagering process to increase surface area and prevent the lager yeast from going dormant/settling out early. There are a number of other sources that state the wood chips are sterile.

http://www.gotham-imbiber.com/abib.pdf

Budweiser’s highly-publicised “beechwood aging process” is a marketing manipulation of part of the brewing process, where sterile beechwood chips, boiled in sodium bicarbonate for several hours to remove any flavoring possibility, are added to the maturation tanks to aid yeast action and clarity.

[Silk City Distillers]

And from wikipedia (blech, I know):

Budweiser is brewed using barley malt, rice, water, hops and yeast. It is lagered with beechwood chips in the aging vessel which, according to Anheuser-Busch, creates a smoother taste.^{[clarification needed]} While beechwood chips are used in the maturation tank, there is little to no flavor contribution from the wood, mainly because they are boiled in sodium bicarbonate [baking soda] for seven hours for the very purpose of removing any flavor from the wood. The maturation tanks that Anheuser-Busch uses are horizontal and, as such, flocculation of the yeast occurs much more quickly. Anheuser-Busch refers to this process as a secondary fermentation, with the idea being that the chips give the yeast more surface area to rest on. This is also combined with a krausening procedure that re-introduces wort into the chip tank, therefore reactivating the fermentation process. By placing the beechwood chips at the bottom of the tank, the yeast remains in suspension longer, giving it more time to reabsorb and process green beer flavors, such as acetaldehyde and diacetyl, that Anheuser-Busch believes are off-flavors which detract from overall drinkability.

[Denver Distiller]

There is a lot of behind the scene stuff that goes on in Budweiser that we don't know about. Are those chips Steamed first? Is it an extract they use? Who knows.

Actually, I know. I attended Siebel in 1995 with the St. Louis Budweiser head brewer. They are steamed. However, he told us that they are a QC nightmare. The steaming reduced bacteria counts, but he process isn't perfect. And yet they cling to this outdated method because they believe that it wouldn't be Budweiser if they stopped krausening and chipping their tanks.

And how about let's just say that you and I got off on the wrong foot, and move on.

[Denver Distiller]

I just don't see why you would leave it up to chance. I'm not saying you can't or won't get a great result, you absolutely can ... but not always.

IMHO, it's not chance. It takes skill and experience to know how to guide the bacteria in the directions that you want. But nearly every single whisk(e)y distillery in the world is working with bacteria, simply because the wort in the case of the UK and Japan, or the malt in the case of major US Bourbon producers is never boiled. And this bacterial loading is exponentially higher than the surface area you see in a wooden fermenter. Obviously, you have whisk(e)y distilleries that have been using these methods for, in some cases, a couple hundred years, and of those that've been around that long, they're making world class whisk(e)y....or they would have never stayed in business for that long.

Even if you use a stainless fermenter, you've got a whole mess of bacterial loading upstream. Open your mill, and take a swab and plate it. And if you have one, your grain silo. And your grist case. And do you have an auger or two? They're swimming in bacteria, and as you know, they never completely empty of solids. Mash tuns, especially if you have lauter plates, are nowhere near sterile.

That's why I asked if you are boiling your wort/mash. If you and Mr. Dehner don't do that, from a bacterial loading perspective, the tiny surface area of a wooden fermenter is the least of your worries.

All that will happen with wooden fermenters is that as the years and decades roll by, a small amount of unique bacteria will consume a tiny amount of substrate in each fermentation, leading to organic acids and other compounds that will oxidize into unique esters after the whisk(e)y has been in the barrel for years. But that little bit of work that the bacteria does on the surfaces of your equipment is difference between good whiskey, and great, IMHO, and my opinion only.

I've enjoyed this conversation with you.

[Silk City Distillers]

I feel maybe I wasn't clear, I am a fan of the bugs.

[Denver Distiller]

I was responding to your comment "why leave it up to chance", and simply pointing out that unless you boil your substrate the way, say, Stranahan's does, you are already "leaving it up to chance". Your fermenter, made of whatever material, will already be riddled with bacteria.

There are newer distillers reading this thread who are looking to purchase tanks, and I'm just trying to give my opinion regarding wooden fermenters . I don't mean any offense.

[Ian Newton]

TLDR the whole thread, but only read the opener. Here at the BWC, we have 3 beautiful cypress tanks from the lamentably-named but high-quality Confederate Stills of Alabama. Paul manufactured and delivered these himself (picture attached of the delivery night). Here are my two cents, and the expression should indicate the value to which you ascribe that which I opine:

1. You don't need a steam wand. We have a ~$150 model from Amazon that works great, but I can't imagine it is more effective than a nice brush. Sterilization or even sanitation don't seem to groove in my mind with open-top fermenters. That said, the biggest harbor of baddies seem to live under their own protective film of goo, and mostly toward the top (where all the O2 is), and this layer was only ever an item of concern while the fermenters were filled with water.
2. Keep them swelled. We had ours for months before the first fermentation, and had to keep them filled with H20. During the summer, this meant weekly draining and refilling to keep the water more or less fresh. The most gross stuff shows up on top. The only time they were dry was when we first took them, and on the first fill they leaked a bit (not much) for a couple days while the cypress swelled.
3. Filling with low pH, biologically active fermentations is way better and stabler than pure, carte blanche water. So get fermenting quickly and you'll never notice any baddies in there.
4. Graded bottom: optional! Ours do not have a graded bottom. We are a couple of more-or-less athletic guys, so when we need to get the last out, we literally deadlift the two fermenter-feet opposite the line-out and put a 2x4 underneath. With 4,000 lbs of something mostly or entirely water inside, it would be possible, but empty this is an easy task, and not a lot to ask. If you had large ones, or were incapable of hoisting them manually, a caring pallet jack placed appropriately would suit.

Cheers from the Baltimore Whiskey Company!

[3d0g]

Hey Ian, did you do any cooling coils in those fermenters?

[Silatjunkie]

Hall Woolford. Ask for Jack. Been making tanks since the 1800's.

He's one old dude..... lol

[Silatjunkie]

TLDR the whole thread, but only read the opener. Here at the BWC, we have 3 beautiful cypress tanks from the lamentably-named but high-quality Confederate Stills of Alabama. Paul manufactured and delivered these himself (picture attached of the delivery night). Here are my two cents, and the expression should indicate the value to which you ascribe that which I opine:

1. You don't need a steam wand. We have a ~$150 model from Amazon that works great, but I can't imagine it is more effective than a nice brush. Sterilization or even sanitation don't seem to groove in my mind with open-top fermenters. That said, the biggest harbor of baddies seem to live under their own protective film of goo, and mostly toward the top (where all the O2 is), and this layer was only ever an item of concern while the fermenters were filled with water.
2. Keep them swelled. We had ours for months before the first fermentation, and had to keep them filled with H20. During the summer, this meant weekly draining and refilling to keep the water more or less fresh. The most gross stuff shows up on top. The only time they were dry was when we first took them, and on the first fill they leaked a bit (not much) for a couple days while the cypress swelled.
3. Filling with low pH, biologically active fermentations is way better and stabler than pure, carte blanche water. So get fermenting quickly and you'll never notice any baddies in there.
4. Graded bottom: optional! Ours do not have a graded bottom. We are a couple of more-or-less athletic guys, so when we need to get the last out, we literally deadlift the two fermenter-feet opposite the line-out and put a 2x4 underneath. With 4,000 lbs of something mostly or entirely water inside, it would be possible, but empty this is an easy task, and not a lot to ask. If you had large ones, or were incapable of hoisting them manually, a caring pallet jack placed appropriately would suit.

Cheers from the Baltimore Whiskey Company!

I just shimmed mine. It's much easier than lifting.

[HWY 101]

As to the answer to your question, many I have spoken with believe that they get better and more complex flavors from either spontaneously forming bacterial fermentations, or from mutations of said bacteria. Chad Yakoboson of Crooked Stave in Denver and Lauren Salazar of New Belgium Brewing will inoculate their fermenters with a fresh clean culture when the get a new wooden foudre. But they have both told me that the real complex beers are to be had after those initial inoculations have had a chance to mutate, yielding more complex organic acids and flavor. Yes, there's more left to chance using this method...but there's also some fine results that result from the gamble.

DD, Is this to say that each foeder would likely have its own unique characteristics and therefore produce different subtle flavors and nose in the end products? I've been to your facility and am aware of the number of fermenters you employ; do you keep track of how each of them affects your whiskey?

Thank you for sharing your vast experience to this topic!

[OldSpye]

I don't really have a dog in this fight (I like the idea of wood, I'll probably play around with wood, but frankly will also do most of my fermenting in HDPE), but...

Is MGP really where we want to set any kind of bar in the context of this discussion? To me, that's kinda like engineers from Ferrari and Lamborghini arguing over whether or not they should do something because "That's what Honda does".

My 2 cents.