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Concurrent Applications - State and Federal?


jessicajlemmon

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After much ado, we're in the process of getting our business going. LLC established, EIN, local zoning, building lease, still on order, bonding squared away... but now as I'm getting ready to start the big stuff - TTB paperwork, I'm not sure what order everything needs to be filed.

It seems like a lot of the overviews completely gloss over building permitting and state liquor board registrations, and go straight to talking about Federal. In my mind it makes sense to go building permit, state application (I'm in Pennyslvania), and then TTB. But it doesn't look like TTB is looking for building permit documentation and if I can just send in a building diagram of our proposed layout, is that enough to get the federal work going while I get it submitted to the State? Or does the state need the Federal permitting information?

I know there can be some overlap on things, but I can't seem to find any examples of how far you can push it. I don't want to trip myself up getting out of sequence. Anyone have some light to shed?

Thanks!

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Hey,

MT requires an approved Federal Basic Permit before they will accept a permit for the state license. Not sure rules in PA, but wouldn't be surprised if there was something similar in place.

Some things hooch are never as pragmatic as you wish.

Cheers,

McKee

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Same with TN. First Federal Permit then State, can't do them in parallel.

So for us it was: apply for DSP and buildout/building permit in parallel then apply for state permit when both are complete.

-Ron

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PA does not require any paperwork from the feds in order to submit for your state limited distillery license. The sate and federal processes are pretty much separate and in my opinion there is really no good reason to wait on one before doing the other here in Pennsylvania.

One thing you might want to keep in mind (as its now November) is that the state license renews at the end of the calendar year. This means if you pay the $1,500 yearly fee now (and receive a license before the end of the year) you will need to renew it for another $1,500 before the end of the year for 2016. So in your case it may make sense to wait and submit your application in January. Additionally you can submit for whats called pre-approval where the state will go though the approval process for you even though your build out is not complete. Then once you do finish your build out you call and get the inspector back for the finial inspection. If I recall correctly you can submit 60 days in advance of when you think your build out will be complete.

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One thing you might want to keep in mind (as its now November) is that the state license renews at the end of the calendar year. This means if you pay the $1,500 yearly fee now (and receive a license before the end of the year) you will need to renew it for another $1,500 before the end of the year for 2016. So in your case it may make sense to wait and submit your application in January.

Great advice HedgeBird and something that happened to me. I submitted my PA application in January, and after having to find another building and deal with some other issues, only recently received my approval. To add insult to injury over the prolonged application process, I received my 2016 renewal form on the same day I received my official approval letter.

In the end though, I'm glad I applied when I did as I wouldn't have wanted those issues to delay my opening if my building and equipment were ready to go. I submitted my TTB paperwork about 45 days ago so I've still got a bit of a wait on that front.

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Thanks for the clarification! I couldn't find anything in the state stuff that looked like it required the federal approvals, and vice versa, that's why I was getting confused.

I was thinking the same thing about waiting until the first of the year for the State application, due to the fee not being prorated at all. So it looks like I can get the Federal rolling and get my permit drawings submitted while I wait for the ball to drop.

Is there any way to check the average wait time on the State permitting? I had no idea it could go as long as 10+ months!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Can anyone refresh me on what kind of Health Department stuff we may have to deal with? It's been a good while since we've talked to anyone in person, and all the info is getting muddled up. It was my understanding that distilleries had it easier than breweries to some degree, since we're essentially making sanitizer.

Just wondering if anyone has run in to any memorable obstacles on that one.

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We had to go through a general health inspection for our tasting room and production (where we have our triple sinks) to get our CO. Just basic things like backplates around sinks, caulking, and sealing well all the wood on our bar. Wasn't too bad. We got the same inspection as a restaurant essentially because we use fruit juices and cut fruit for our bar (we serve no food).

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Can anyone refresh me on what kind of Health Department stuff we may have to deal with? It's been a good while since we've talked to anyone in person, and all the info is getting muddled up. It was my understanding that distilleries had it easier than breweries to some degree, since we're essentially making sanitizer.

We had to do a health code inspection of our tasting room pretty much the same as any restaurant or bar. All the stuff County Seat mentioned plus make sure to have your little red sanitizer bucket, soap and sanitizer on hand, PH strips or a PH reader for testing your sink, etc. (this all assumes your having a tasting room with more than samples in disposable plastic cups) For us the health inspector did not check our production area as its not part of their jurisdiction. PA Department of Agriculture does a bi-yearly inspection of the production area. The only thing we got called out on during this inspection was having food ingredients (juniper berries) stored on a wood shelf that she deemed "not easily cleaned" and evidence of an animal in the production area (i had left my dogs water bowl in the sink). We moved the juniper berries to a stainless shelf while she was there and let her know the dog stays upstairs and we where good.

I *think* this is the correct form to register with the department of ag:

http://www.agriculture.pa.gov/Protect/FoodSafety/Processing%20Wholesale%20and%20Distribution/Wholesale%20Food%20Processing,%20Manufacturing%20and%20Distribution/Documents/APPLICATION%20PACKET-FOOD%20ESTABLISHMENT%20REGISTRATION%2002-2015.1.pdf

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As a consultant who deals with applications, I advise my clients to take care of local issues first. It is pragmatic advice. Let’s take a walk through the proces.

TTB is going to require that you submit (1) diagrams of the premises, and more importantly, (2) a signed lease.

You do not want to enter into a lease, only to learn that you can’t use the building because of some ordinance, or that you can’t afford to make the leasehold improvements necessary to obtain the required permits.

So, since you should take care of local issues before you sign the lease (unless it is contingent on the required approvals), and TTb requires a lease, local issues should take precedence over submitting your application to TTB.

The same would apply to submitting your applications for state licenses. You need to have secured your premises first.

I would never advise a client to hold off on submitting a state license application until TTB has approved the federal registration and issued the permit. TTB’s average time to completion has deteriorated to 157 days as of October. I can’t speak in terms of “most states,” because I’ve not had experience with a lot, but certainly not al. However, I can say that a lot of states, including PA I think, that require a federal permit before final approval of a state license, will go through all of the steps necessary to give you a commitment to issue once TTB gives its approval to the federal application. The state application then sits ready and when you get the permit, you send the state a copy. Your state license then is approved quickly and without further hassle.

I can’t imagine having to add the waiting time for a state license to the waiting time for a federal permit. My best advice, if at all possible - serve those “sentences” concurrently and hope for an early release program.

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