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Looking for suggestions on separating grain after mashing


GeekSpirits

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I recently borrowed my Son's Hydropress (he juices water mellons for beer) to try to separate more liquid from my rye mash.

A lot of work for nil gain.

In the centre of the press there is a water filled bladder. Hook a hose on and fill to 3 bar(approx. 45 psi)

It started pressing well but slowed to a stop. When I opened it up there was a nice solid 3/4 inch layer against the outside filter cloth but the rest of the mash was as wet as when I put it in. The mash had been compressed into an impervious layer.

(sorry about the sideways orientation)

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Can anyone point me to a place (preferably online) that would sell large sheets of this type (or something similar) of plastic mesh screen material?
I have searched the internet and just cant seem to find anyone selling this.  I am hoping that is because I dont know the right word/product to search for.

 

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My though is getting something like this hopper:
http://www.hippohopper.com/self-dumping-hoppers/specialty-hoppers/dewatering-self-dumping-hopper/#/

and then lining the inside with an finer mesh material.  Pump out of the still into hopper, allow to drain/stain over night...

We are currently mashing rye flour and fermenting/distilling on the grain...

 

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Here is a link to what we use for de-watering our mash.  With a 1500 lbs grain bill it de-waters the mash in under 15 minutes.  We build a PVC manifold that we clamp to the top part of the hopper that spreads the mash out over the filter medium as it runs down the incline.  We build another PVC drain pipe up that hooks to both drains and extends over to our floor drains.  I have a video somewhere that I'll try to find.  We tank the bin out with the fork truck and dump into a 270 gallon tote that has the top cut off.  Farmer Brad picks up a few totes every Monday.  I'm getting ready to buy a second one as our grain bills will go up to 3000 lbs per once we start using the new column still.

http://www.idsfilterboxes.com/Self-Dumping-De-Cant.html

 

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thus may have nothing to do with nothing but ill mention it anyway lol. we got our hands on tubes from a old aeration grain bin . these tubes are 4 feet long and about 2 feet in diameter like size of a culvert but made of heavy screen . the science is they lay on the bottom of the bin floor  one attached to the next till u reach the other side of the bin , the bin is filled with wet grain and air is forced thru the tubes and the grain is dried

.anyway they are very strong but also very fine holes so my plan is to use them to separate grain from the wash . set on a angle with a collection tub under it to catch liquid  , as i pump mash into the elevated end  and turn it continually the mash will roll in the giant tube, liquid  comes out thru the screen and the grain eventually rolls out the end . im not sure how many of these tubes i will need but im thinking by adjusting the rotation speed and the angle of the tube i    can find a sweet spot and a 4 foot section will do (i have ten of them but i sure hope i dont need 40 feet of rolling tube to make it work ). the steeper the angle the faster the grain will roll to end of tube the lesser the angle the longer it will roll in tube before reaching the end  this should make it a continual operation and more tubes could be added if volume needed to be increased .

 so does this sound like it will work , i should add the object of the game is to only extract to a moist grain level , so it can be fed out to neighbours. pigs ,  

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8 hours ago, HedgeBird said:

Can anyone point me to a place (preferably online) that would sell large sheets of this type (or something similar) of plastic mesh screen material?
I have searched the internet and just cant seem to find anyone selling this.  I am hoping that is because I dont know the right word/product to search for.

 

IMG_5097.JPG

IMG_5096.JPG

 

My though is getting something like this hopper:
http://www.hippohopper.com/self-dumping-hoppers/specialty-hoppers/dewatering-self-dumping-hopper/#/

and then lining the inside with an finer mesh material.  Pump out of the still into hopper, allow to drain/stain over night...

We are currently mashing rye flour and fermenting/distilling on the grain...

 

I have some very similar marerial i scrounged from a local paper mill. I think it is used to de-water pulp in a belt press. Try searching "belt press" parts

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  • 2 weeks later...

What you are trying to build is call a "DSM SCREEN" or "BENT SCREEN SEPARATOR" 

Normally made of stainless steel triangled shaped wire. It shaves the water off of the particles. There is no moving parts. They work very very good. 

The trick is the bend in the screen and the length. Normally only 4- 6 feet long and 30-48" wide. 

On your 3 pic pipe manifold, if you changed the design of you distribution system to a distribution box it would allow for more even flow and work even better. If you want stainless screen just google it and there many people who make these in the USA.

I am very much surprised that more people don't have these BENT SCREEN SEPARATORS. I guess no one know about them.

 

Questions, Just ask.....

515-559-4879

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I think I have finally found the ultimate method of removing solids from my rye mash. Ran a test batch through a belt press at a local winery. Took about 1 hour for 1,000 litres. Usually takes up to 2 days with conventional lauter screen. Solids very dry so my alcohol yield should increase.20170522_145726.thumb.jpg.cb27fd7b81235bd79576df1557331d04.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2017-5-23 at 3:38 PM, PeteB said:

I think I have finally found the ultimate method of removing solids from my rye mash. Ran a test batch through a belt press at a local winery. Took about 1 hour for 1,000 litres. Usually takes up to 2 days with conventional lauter screen. Solids very dry so my alcohol yield should increase.20170522_145726.thumb.jpg.cb27fd7b81235bd79576df1557331d04.jpg

Hi Pete, 

Are you going to use the machine pre fermentation or later in the process? 

Do you also know what such a machine would cost in the ballpark?

 

Cheers,

 

Pascal

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Hi Pasca,

I am using the machine pre-fermentation so I need to squeeze as much sugar as possible from the grain.

The cheapest belt press I could find was USD 19,000 for Chinese built, but the physical size was too large.

Eventually tracked down an older but unused Australian made V-Belt press for USD 8,000. Haven't received it yet. Will post photos when it is installed.

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On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:04 PM, Urrazeb said:

Hi Pete, have you added rice hulls to the traditional lautering? 

I had a quick look and it seems it'd be pretty hard to find a small belt press for a reasonable price. 

I often get suggestions about rice hulls. First problem is there is no rice grown in our island state Tasmania. Freight is just too expensive for the bulk I would need.

Have tried many other types of husk but I am convinced that with 100% rye the bulk of husk needs to be huge. As you add more husk it soaks up sugar so the runoff might speed up but too much sugar is absorbed.

A small amount of husk might work well to enhance barley lautering, but very skeptical about it assisting with rye.

Have just been experimenting with 100% malted rye. I malt and dry my own. One of the 2 batches we have done ran off almost as good as barley malt.

I think there are 2 reasons. Firstly with 100% malt the grain is not cooked as hot so the thin rye husk remains a little more rigid and aids drainage.

The other thing that might have helped was the batch of rye still contained a small amount of moisture. When this was roller milled the husk did not shatter as it does when completely dry. The husk is in bigger pieces which also helps speedy drainage.

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7 minutes ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Looks like a nightmare to clean and keep sanitary, especially if you are trying to separate pre-fermentation.  Cleary, there has to be a way to do it, otherwise it wouldn't at all work in a winery.  I would imagine a belt press that can be CIP'ed is going to cost a pretty penny though.

Belt presses have pressure jets to keep the belt clean during operation. At cleanup just run a sterilizer.

Also think wooden fermenters, they are not sterile.

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Hi Pete, we mash with 100% triticale and it acts very similar to rye. 

We use 10% rice husk by weight. The husks are soaked and rinsed in water prior to use to reduce absorption of the wort. They're added during the second enzyme rest. 

Our tuns gravity drain into the fermenters and no pressing of the grain is necessary, the run off is always clean but does take time to complete.

This method can be used for on or off grain ferments, off grain is better as the liquid is hotter and drains more freely. 

 

Proper initial liquification is the key. 

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I have a question.  Why not distill on the grain and avoid all of the hassle?  My grandfather distilled great spirits from corn, rye and barley and he allays distilled on the grain.  He used the cook method sometimes, but he usually malted his own corn and distilled a great white dog from it, that made an excellent "Charter Whiskey" (Bourbon).  His spirits never had even the faintest hint of bitterness.  I don't understand why people go to such great extremes to separate the liquids from the solids when using corn and rye. It doesn't make sense to me.

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1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

I have a question.  Why not distill on the grain and avoid all of the hassle? 

I know for myself at least we do distill on the grain, but are still interested in separation options post distillation to reduce to volume/weight of spent mash we need to move/transport.

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30 minutes ago, HedgeBird said:

I know for myself at least we do distill on the grain, but are still interested in separation options post distillation to reduce to volume/weight of spent mash we need to move/transport.

After distillation makes a lot of sense because it is waste, so the efficiency of the process doesn't matter, but before fermentation or distillation seems like an awful time. I'm surprised nobody has talked about mash filters (see  http://www.meura.com/products-and-services/brewhouse/mash-filtration.htm) as they are actually designed for this application, but they sure are awfully expensive.

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We separate grain mash post distillation with about a $100-200 investment in hardware.  This, obviously, does not include costs like pumps and hoses, which it is assumed you already have.

For example, 1000 pounds total grain volume in ~530g total volume reduced to roughly ~160-180g total volume of reasonably dry grain (or wet grain, however you want to look at it).

It is a very hands-on process, but we can process ~265g of stillage in about 30 minutes.  

It is not a perfect process and some small solids do not get caught.  Likewise, while the spent grain appears reasonably dry, you can extract liquid if you squeeze it with your hand.  

That said, it reduces the bulk tremendously, and makes it significantly easier to transport.

 

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11 minutes ago, Silk City Distillers said:

We separate grain mash post distillation with about a $100-200 investment in hardware.  This, obviously, does not include costs like pumps and hoses, which it is assumed you already have.

Care to share what method you are using Silk?

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