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Newbie with a Brandy Question


felo72

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Hello ADI Forum, I’ve been doing some research before taking the dive and opening a distillery. It is definitely a humbling experience from what I’ve read and not for the faint of heart, and yet I’m still reading and researching. I want to maintain an 80 proof product and age it in oak barrels to get a whiskey type flavor. Then run it through a charcoal filter to finish a smooth yet warm taste with a slight hint of fruit and oaky flavor. I’d like to use fruit because I live in an area known for the fruit, especially the grapes with many wineries around. My idea was to open a distillery that markets brandy differently, as a whiskey flavor made from local fruit. However, I didn’t want to sound like an idiot to the industry. There are your connoisseurs that might be offended, but I also want to appeal to a different crowd. When I’ve visited craft distilleries I’ve noticed different groups of crowds, with a lot more tourists than expert drinkers. My goal is smooth, warmth and not much bite. I don’t want to scare the customers away and I want to make it an experience per se. Something that they’ll say, I’ve got to have a bottle of that! I’ve tried to find articles of anyone with that type of idea and I’ve read around the forums and can’t find it either. Is it crazy and against the rules? Forgive my ignorance if it is, and please educate me as I’d like to know. Thanks in advance.

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If you are located in the US the rules you are looking at would be the CFR and the BAM is handy for product classifications. Grape brandy is traditionally aged in oak like whiskey, however it is typically aged in toasted oak and most often used cooperage. American Bourbon and Rye are aged in new charred oak, so if this is the 'whiskey flavor' you are referring to you could try doing that. If you are simply trying to market brandy to whiskey drinkers I'm sure there are things you can do to make it more appealing to that segment.

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Thanks for the feedback Tom. I'm located on the shore of south west Michigan. I'm still researching and putting a plan together. Plus I signed up and started watching the videos on Distilling Institute.com. I'm rather impressed with what they've put together. This forum offers a wealth of knowledge, too.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Hey felo72, welcome to the forums.  I am a rep with All American Containers. Let me know if I can help you with glass bottles when you are ready!

Carol Phillips

All American Containers

cphillips@allamericancontainers.com

336-906-9097

 

 

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You state:

"My idea was to open a distillery that markets brandy differently, as a whiskey flavor made from local fruit. However, I didn’t want to sound like an idiot to the industry. There are your connoisseurs that might be offended, but I also want to appeal to a different crowd."

This post comes under the heading, just making sure ....

I assume that you know that whiskey is made from grain, but just in case, whiskey is made from grain, not fruit.  Always, alway, always look to the standards of identity for any product.  Whiskey = grain.  Brandy = fruit.  

Grape brandy must be aged in oak containers for two years or be labeled immature. So unless you are willing, and more importantly able, to wait out the two years, it will have to be either another type of fruit or a hard to swallow immature designation.

Containers include tanks, and since the standard does not say what sort of oak, well ... that's what makes the "art" in artisan.  I don't know where, or if, TTB would draw the line on  the size of the container.  I suspect it is 210 gallons, since one of its "predecessor agencies," several generations removed, ruled as follows in 1956: 

Historically, casks or packages for the storage of distilled spirits range in capacity up to 210 tax gallons, as evidenced by tax stamps provided in the past for such packages. Age may be claimed on brandy stored in new or reused cooperage in accordance with the provisions of section 39(b) of the Regulations relating to the Labeling and Advertising of Distilled Spirits. Such authority does not extend to oak ovals of large capacity since the contact of the brandy with the wood surface would be too limited in comparison with the quantity of brandy for the brandy to obtain proper characteristics of age. Accordingly, oak ovals or puncheons (cask or packages), limited in capacity to not more than 210 tax gallons (or equivalent of 210 wine gallons), may be used for storing brandy as original packages or packages filled from storage tanks. Where such containers are used, appropriate facilities must be provided for proper gauging and handling of the packages. Oak ovals of a capacity in excess of 210 tax gallons cannot be used either as brandy storage tanks, or as original packages or packages filled from storage tanks.

I omit the details of the discussion.  To see them go to https://www.ttb.gov/rulings/56-203.htm.  The ruling is still on TTB's website, suggesting that no one has deemed it obsolete.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for the info dhdunbar. Yes, I do know the difference between whiskey and brandy. When I originally posted this I wasn't aware of the 2-year standard for aging, but I have since learned that important detail. I'm now looking into vodkas and immature brandies to start while I still have brandy aging in barrels. I've read conflicting opinions about small barrel aging to speed up the process, and I would still need to label it as immature unless it sits for a minimum of 2 years, but that's for another discussion. My concern was if the industry would look down on the business for marketing a whiskey flavor made from local fruit (not on the label, external marketing)? From the limited experience I have so far, I'm looking for a way to educate the people/tourists that might think brandy is only a desert spirit when in fact it could take on the same characteristics of whiskey. When I've shared a brandy with whiskey and scotch drinkers, they were shocked to learn it was made from a fruit with a similar taste. When I tell them to search for the fruit after a sip, it becomes more fun to drink. I know each spirit has it's place, but I really want to capitalize on the local fruit to produce a spirit. From my research to date, the end results could only be vodka, gin, and brandy. I'm not interested at this point in producing a gin, but I like how you can produce a vodka from fruit as long as you hit 190 proof. If I can achieve that with different fruits not commonly used, I think there's a chance for that product. In my opinion, I don't think brandy has enough notoriety to generate enough business on its own. Local bars and liquor stores have limited brandies available. Is there a good reason for this, or in my mind, does that equal an opportunity?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Felo,

The reason there isn't a brandy available in your area might be that it doesn't have demand.  Sometimes there is a reason there isn't a provider of a product.  If you make a brandy and try to make it taste like a whiskey, it will still be shelved in the brandy section.  So, I'm not really sure you will see much benefit.

If you want to make whiskey, you should probably make whiskey instead of making brandy.  I'm not sure what you'd call " characteristics of whiskey," but I'm guessing you are referring to over oaking.  If that's the case, then please, don't do it.  Brandy is a great spirit that needs to have it's fruit expressed.

Cheers,

Turtle

 

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We have done what you described, aged vidal blanc wine distillate (brandy designate) in used small bourbon barrels. We aged for two years. The result is a brandy with whiskey-like overtones, because of the use of the used charred oak barrels. It is interesting, but does not taste the way one normally expects brandy to taste. Definitely a whiskey-like character. The use of charred oak barrels, new or used, traditionally can be included in the aging of cognacs. But often it would be only a portion of the production, and then rebarreled in other barrels as part of a much longer aging period.

Will it be accepted? Well, by virtue of how it must be labeled, it will be seen as brandy when purchased by the consumer. Will they like it when they drink it and it tastes different? Some will and some won't. I actually enjoy the flavor, and since we plan to use it to make Wisconsin-style old fashioned cocktails, I think it will be fine for that. My head distiller really doesn't like it, and is not sure he would want to put it on the shelf!

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