Trevor

Starter Still / Bench Still Suggestions

22 posts in this topic

I'm looking for suggestions for a good starter still. Something we can use to start production and complete TTB permitting then shift it to use as a bench still for recipe development in the future. Something flexible to produce whiskey, gin and vodka. 

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We have jacketed R & D stills in 6, 10, 20 and 45 gallon operating capacities.  We can build them to produce like a larger pot still no matter the configuration of the larger pot still.  They are electric Baine Marie and the heating system and controls will pass electrical inspection anywhere in the US or Canada.  These stills are outfitted with Apollo safety valves on the jackets and inner boilers.  Direct fire stills limit you in lots of ways but if you want one of those we have them at much better prices than our competitors.  Email paul@distillery-equipment.com or call 417-778-6100   

Thank you

 

Paul

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Hi Paul,

Could you provide a link to your 10 gallon baine marie style R&D still? Couldn't find it on your website.

 

Thanks,

 

Josh

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we have smaller stills that operate identical to our larger stills so you can be sure that when scaling up your product will remain the same.

starting at 60 gallons capacity, they are a bit larger than hobbiest level equipment.

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Josh,

I don't have the 10 gallon R&D stills on my web site yet.  Please see the photo and info below.  We build our R&D stills to produce like our larger stills and we can build them to produce like many of our competitors larger stills.  The 10 gallon still below left with the 4 plate column is a combination mash tun still.  This unit gives you the ability to cook the mash, do a stripping run and then a spirit run all in the same vessel,  You can cook corn mashes and other grain in mashes, without the fear of scorching.  This unit mimics our pro series whiskey stills perfectly.  The 10 gallon still below with the tall packed column was built to mimic a much larger vodka still,   There is no reason to spend $25,000 to $50,000 on an R&D still. There is no reason to have a 60 gallon R&D still.  A 10 gallon R&D still will produce just as well as a 60 gallon with much less waste when your results are bad.  Also since you will be using less grain etc you will save a fortune over time compared to a 60 gallon R&D still.  Depending on the configuration and which options that you choose, our 10 gallon, jacketed, Baine Marie R&D stills cost between $1,000.00 and $5,000.00  We have many other sizes available.  Call 417-778-6100 or email paul@distillery-equipment.com

 

P5260529.JPGP6150589.jpg

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Josh and Trevor,

Whatever still you get you should make sure that the electrical system meets at least the US NEMA4X standard (vapor proof and liquid proof) and if possible the electric components should be explosion proof.    Also control panels should meet the US NEC 409 requirements for control panels so that they will pass inspection in the US and all control panel electrical components should be UL listed.  CE listed components may not pass inspection in the US.

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3 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

CE listed components may not pass inspection in the US.

actually that is false, according to the national electrical code, CE is to be accepted as equal to UL. as they are both accepted international standards.

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Steve,

Show me in the NEC where it says that CE components are accepted as equal to UL components in commercial and industrial control systems in the US?

 Also, please see the NEC article 408 and UL508a standards for control panels.  Either the panel must be UL listed or all of the components in the panel above 5 watts must be UL listed.  A CE listing on a part that is not also UL listed, is not good enough.  The factories making CE listed parts promise that the parts are up to the CE standard.  Factories making UL listed parts on the other hand are inspected by UL to make sure that the parts are up to standard.    

Also OSHA does not accept CE listed parts in commercial and industrial control systems and this may cause many issues.  https://www.tuv.com/media/usa/aboutus_1/pressreleases/fieldevaluation/CE_in_the_US.pdf 

"The CE mark is a generic mark used in the European Union (EU) to indicate that a manufacturer has declared that the product meets requirements in the EU for product safety. The CE-mark basically states, “I, the manufacturer, herewith certify that MY Equipment complies with this (relevant) EUROPEAN standard”. In the US, under OSHA's NRTL requirements, the product must have the specific mark of one of the NRTLs recognized to test and certify these types of products. Hence, the US requirement is for 1. Third-Party Safety Certification by an independent and OSHA accredited testing lab instead of a voluntary self certification by the manufacturer; and 2. Evaluation to an approved US or Canadian (for Canada) standard for safety of electrical equipment instead of compliance to a European standard. The AHJ-Inspectors should be vigilant when approving the installation of electric systems. If AHJ-Inspectors see any CE marked equipment, they should red-tag the equipment and seek an NRTL listing or a Third-Party field inspection by a capable NRTL. Even if the unit seems to be well manufactured, differences between the US / Canadian standards and the European standards may be quite significant and could possibly have safety implications."

   

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take a deep breath, 

this was not an attack, and being right on the internet will not gain anyone anything.

I have dealt with this many times, many inspectors freak out when they see CE but not UL. but it is in the latest code book.

they also freak out over CSA, which is also accepted as equal to UL.

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Steve,

Please reread my post.  I did not give any indication that I thought that you had attacked me.    My statement that CE listed parts may not pass inspection in the US is correct.  You said that it was false and that "...according to the national electrical code, CE is to be accepted as equal to UL" which is incorrect.  I gave proof to back up my statement and you gave no proof to back up yours.  Please read the below and check out the link.

"A “CE” label on a piece of equipment is not a testing laboratory mark and is not accepted as such."  So when the NEC mentions a testing laboratory mark it is not referring to the CE mark.   Again the CE mark is not a testing laboratory Mark.  CSA is a testing laboratory mark and so it is accepted in the NEC.  The CSA mark is also acceptable with OSHA, but the CE mark is not acceptable with OSHA because OSHA believes that some CE components may be dangerous.    Any factory in China can put the CE mark on a part by just promising that the part meets the CE standards and paying the fee.  

https://www.stpaul.gov/DocumentCenter/Government/Safety & Inspections/Construction Inspections/Electrical/listing-labeling.equipment.2014_201405130824104568.pdf

You stated that you have dealt with this many times.  At this point I believe we have more stills operating in the US than you and we have dealt with many inspectors to and I have dealt with some, in the past, that would not pass a control panel because it had CE listed parts.  Since then we put all UL listed components in our panels.  Also NEMA designations are very important and if you do not have the ones that are required the equipment will most likely fail inspections.

 

Steve since you are selling equipment into the US you should know about and comply with the NEC and OSHA requirements.  

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I'd absolutely concur with purchasing an R&D / limited batch still that's of the same type/style as your production still.  The Artisan line is good as you can get a small, say 250 liter unit having the same size characteristics as a larger 2500 liter model -- these are both available steam jacketed and share appropriately sized & matched components (column / deph / PC) . It's tough to (and in many cases impossible) to go from either a direct immersion / direct fired / baine marie  small still to a production model (which I consider at the bare minimum 600 liters).  

Also, the banter about UL / CE listing is borderline bullshit. Our insurance carrier said that just because all of the bits & bobs are UL/CE listed/approved  doesn't mean the unit as a whole is automatically listed/approved.   Has to do with something around component vs. product recognition.  

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With regards to Paul's and Steve's debate about CE components and whether they would pass inspection, there is a common misconception about what CE means which most people don't realize.  There are TWO CE markings, and each one means something completely different.

1. CE = Conformitée Européenne, meaning European Conformity, which is found on products designed to be sold in Europe, and is the manufacturer's declaration that the product meets the requirements of the applicable European standards.  This marking is mandatory for EU countries and EFTA countries such as Norway, Switzerland and Turkey.

2. CE = China Export, means just that.  It has been made in China and exported out of China.  It has no qualitative assurance, just meant to deceive and confuse the consumer.  The symbols look almost identical, which adds to the confusion.  Take a look at the picture below.  The European Commission is aware of this issue, but nothing much has been done about it yet.

Therefore, we agree with Paul (Southernhiglander) that CE markings coming out of China means absolutely nothing from an electrical safety/inspection perspective, unless they are the Conformitée Européenne markings.

image.png

The difference in the markings is the distance of the "C" from the "E" and also the middle line inside the "E" is longer on the "China Export", otherwise, indistinguishable and only meant to deceive an unaware consumer.

The above can be verified on the following Wikipedia link if someone thinks the above is too outrageous to be true:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking

 

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Hi Trevor - I have a 15 gallon jacketed R&D still that I got from Jesse Lupo of Trident Stills.  This still can be configured with an electric heating element if you do not have a boiler.  This is a column still with a dephlagmator and a gin basket and pressure relief valve.  Jesse is a great guy and a true craftsman and we have been very happy with all of his products.

MiniStill.jpg

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Just catching this thread.... We are starting up in Canada and an it would be extrememly helpful to our Fire Commisioner, who has never dealt with a distillery if the equipment was certified to a standard recognized in Canada.. I'm curious if the Genio Stills are Canadian approved... Or if the CE approval would count in Canada.. 

 

Thanks

MAtthew

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my vote goes to the baine marie still for a test still . cant comment on any electrical issues because we dont use electricity to heat , but the still is great and for $1800 bucks for a 45 gallon still u cant beat it . and if you change ur mind and give up on making whisky this still also makes great cheese , 

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Check out Lawrence Taylor at Still Dragon. Parts to complete systems.

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Still dragon does not sell a heating system for their stills.  

It's neat that you use a vacuum still.  We sell vacuum stills in our other business which involves building equipment for the extraction of oils from plant materials.

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