A DISTILLERY IN YOUR HOME?

[Beauport Bob]

I run my life "flipping" questions and problems.

So, there are restrictions to a DSP connected to a residence. Has any one tried to get an occupancy permit for a residence in a DSP? I believe, under any zoning by-laws, that would be difficult if not impossible.

And, with respect for all, I will listen to almost anything Ralph or any of you have to say. Glad you are all here.

Bob

[Absinthe Pete]

I have to agree there is way too much tension in this thread. I'm not sure what some of the responses are referring too either. Oh well.

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

I repeat. If you want to do something constructive, get the law changed. If not, quit bitching and apply for a license like everyone else. I don't know why anyone here would say that "home distillation" is illegal. It is not. Get the permit and it is not illegal. Put it in your garage. Put it in a little shed out back, so to meet the prohibition against having it in a residence. But it is NOT illegal, it's just hard to get the permit. Not impossible. There is no prohibition against a person starting a distillery on his property or in any rented space or borrowed space that is not a residence. An individual citizen can file the application and get the necessary permits and do it. If you want the Government to actually Permit "home distillation", you invite their scrutiny and intrusion through the permitting process one way or another.

The character of the dialog turns confrontational when people start to attack one another instead of focusing on the goal. The goal is to be able to make alcohol at home for personal consumption. So do it. Get the permit and do it and be grownup about it. File the papers, pay the Federal taxes (no State taxes if you don't sell it at least not in NY).

If you don't want to get a permit, then accept that it is illegal till SOMEONE changes the law. It's as simple as that.

[cowdery]

This thread is a good illustration in how people talk past each other.

There is no "current U.S. ban on home distilling." There is a requirement that producers of potable alcohol be licensed so they can be taxed. Period. End of story. As hobbies go, home distilling is probably more dangerous than needle point and less dangerous than chain saw juggling, but safety has zero to do with the law requiring producers of potable alcohol to be licensed so they can be taxed.

Regardless of that fact, a person with a small still who uses it as a true hobbyist and practices minimal discretion will never be busted. Nobody is looking for you, nobody cares. There is not a single agent in any alcohol control agency anywhere in the United States tasked with finding and busting hobbyists. So it's a moot point.

Right now, if you want to set up a still to screw around with, it will cost you some money--for licenses and taxes--but you can do it. If you think you should be able to set up a still to screw around with without paying money, that's a different issue. There is no "ban."

[Tirador]

Actually it is against U.S. law to operate a distillery in your home, and no you can't get it licensed. Delaware Phoenix posted this back in April in another thread. It's worth reading ... and her Absinthe is worth drinking too ...

Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:42 PM

Hi. Sorry but you cannot run a distillery from your home.

For the regs (regulations) you can find them at http://www.ttb.gov/s...rits-regs.shtml

You'll want to pay particular attention to 27 CFR Part 19 Distilled Spirits Plants.

Subpart F, says you can't operate in a dwelling.

Over here at the TTB, is the application packet. There's all sorts of documents to download, and looking them over will give you an idea of the kinds of information you'll need to provide TTB. I read somewhere that someone thought it was like joining the CIA. The front page of my original website said "Distilleries only crazy people start". I think that's really true.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try and start a microdistillery where you live, only that you need to understand what you might be getting into. You're basically starting a business, one that is heavily regulated. Maybe any business is difficult to start, but distillery seems more fraught than others.

Good luck.

Delaware Phoenix Distillery

Physically: 144 Delaware Street, Walton, NY 13856 USA

Snail Mail: P.O. Box 245, Walton, NY 13856-0245 USA

On the web: www.delawarephoenix.com

[cowdery]

I know the still and living quarters can't be in the same building but that changes nothing about what I wrote. I admit my point is semantic but still important for a clear understanding of this matter. The relaxed Federal licensing terms were intended to facilitate farm-based production of fuel ethanol, so a farm could use its own corn to make fuel for the farm's use. In that context, a requirement that the still be housed separately from the people surely seemed sensible. It remains incorrect to construe that as "a ban on home distilling."

[delaware_phoenix]

The regulations also preclude issuance of a DSP license for operation in a shed, outdoors, and a few other places. Basically, no moonshine-like operations will be granted permits for operating a Distilled Spirits Plant. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the real reason for the regs being what they are. Post-prohibition, they wanted to keep the illicit producers out of the newly legal business of beverage alcohol.

While it's possible that someone with a detached garage might get a permit from TTB, depending on the location, zoning might be a problem. Usually zoning laws try and separate (even minimally) industrial activities from residences. It's true that many people operate what might be called an industrial activity from their garage: a wood shop, sculptor, metal working; I don't think you need a permit from the Feds to do any of those activities.

So while there's no ban on home distiller per se, the current regulations preclude issuance of a DSP permit is most situations where someone would want to practice home distilling. Also, I don't know if it's all states, but I imagine most certainly have laws that state that even owning a still (without a permit obviously) is a crime. Usually a misdemeanor.

[Tirador]

Carol Coy up at TTB specifically told me that it has to be a seperate "free standing" building ... fully detached from the any building where people live. That means that it can be a free standing garage, shed or barn.

In fact I know of just such a distillery a few miles from where I was in Ohio, that is fully licensed and legal. Now in that state, the location must be zoned industrial or agricultural as opposed to residential ... and in the case of the distillery I mentioned it was zoned agricultural.

As Delaware Phoenix just said, TTB's regs are heavily biased against whever might have been a "moonshiner" scenario ... and folks at TTB have told me as much. The reason I know this is that I have a large old Al-Quitar still from Spain that I wanted to set up outside our distilled beverage plant and cook on with an open wood fire (just like how it was originally used), but TTB said that was a not allowable no matter what scenario I suggested.

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

Impossible to secure an outdoor location, that's the logic. Not sure I agree, but it's their position.

Any secured structure that will "protect the revenue" and hold a certificate of occupancy can be a DSP. The only thing that separates the "home distiller" from a licensed operation is the willingness on the part of the distiller to be a legal entity, and those who do not want to be bothered with adhering to any regulatory oversight. If you want to pursue an illegal operation with all the risks involved (remember it's the Tax people will come after you), be my guest. But if you want to be able to openly experiment and join the community, get the license. As I said, no minimums are specified so a true small home operation (not in the "home" but set apart in a garage or secure "shed" you can.) "Home distilling" is not illegal, you just can't set up shop in a residence or the other listed prohibited sites.

R

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

As Delaware Phoenix just said, TTB's regs are heavily biased against whever might have been a "moonshiner" scenario ... and folks at TTB have told me as much. The reason I know this is that I have a large old Al-Quitar still from Spain that I wanted to set up outside our distilled beverage plant and cook on with an open wood fire (just like how it was originally used), but TTB said that was a not allowable no matter what scenario I suggested.

It would be possible, I think, to modify a building or to build a structure with doors serving as walls which would be rolled back so that the building works would be visible and it would have the "feel" of being outside, as long as the works are actually indoors. For the visitor, if this is your goal, it is "perception" that counts more than the full on reality.

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

A piece of advice for goinbroke2 ("Interests" comments above), starting out your venture into a small and tight community in such a highly regulated environment, it is not a good beginning to insult those from whom you might learn and whose support you may need in the future. There is not one distiller I know of who considers themselves "glorified"; more often they feel humbled by the process and grateful to have succeeded getting through it. It is perhaps a "pride of accomplishment" you are confusing with boastfulness or self-glorification.

[Tupper Lake Distillery]

Thanks for the advise, I'm not into biting the hand that feeds me.

I'll keep it short and sweet and won't respond on this site until I have my permit.

This site and the vast majority of support offered is invaluable. The government threads might not be of any use to someone outside the US but the Production and general threads are excellent.

A pm made it clear that there is an "old boys club" and that I am not a part of it and won't be until I have a license in hand.

I do not remember ever being ignorant to anyone here or disrespectful, if anyone was offended by something I've said I apologise. (I've only made 13 posts!)

One investor backed out early May which has been a bit of a setback but there is so much more work, I'll just add that on the "to-do" list.

And to clarify, no it was not Ralph who pm'd me. Ralph you had a very good point in your advice but I do know of one who does consider himself "glorified".

When I come back it will be under the name of the company so there will be no confusion as to my intentions.

Thank you, goodbye

editted for clarification (I tried to carefully select words but it didn't come across right)

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

For the record, I did not delete your posting. My comment was based on the note in the "Interests" section of your profile which shows up next to your post (which is no longer there.) But let's put that aside.

More importantly there is no reason for you or anyone to exit the conversations. This is for now an open forum and the questions and answers are valuable to everyone from beginners to licensed DSP operators. Having a license is not the criteria for participation. This site is meant to be informational, not confrontational. However, there are some who come onto the forum (any online forum for that matter) and in their disagreement with any particular post, get indignant or post meaningless drivel for the sake of provocation.

We need the input and questions of ALL who are interested enough to come to this forum and read, learn and pose pertinent questions or comments. We're all learning here. And this should be a "NO FIGHT ZONE", no meaningful progress can come of antagonism.

[KBFreeRange]

I could not agree more. The process to acquire a DSP permit and state license are well defined and not prejudicial. Complying with them does not harm an applicant financially nor does it cramp an individual's ability to be expressive and to explore new things. There are always people looking for a shortcut, and ones that lack the commitment to "do it the right way". And there are plenty or reasons that a DSP SHOULD NOT be located within a home or on a piece of property that shares space with living quarters. If you need to make alcohol at home better to stick with making wine or beer.

[Absinthe Pete]

Definitely a no fight zone, but Goinbroke2 does have some legitimate points. I never read the posts of his that got deleted, but when I first came here only a few weeks ago it seemed every time I mentioned something relating to alcohol in a post I automatically got some words about doing something illegal. It's rather off putting to have to defend yourself over and over again. I mentioned that I was in the beginning stages of researching of opening a distillery and that I wasn't new to alcohol and a few people automatically assumed that I was doing something illegal, which is far from the case. I've had a background in wine making for almost 20 years and did do some lab distilling in college. Anyway, I've learned a lot from this forum and will continue to post and read.

[Jonathan Forester]

I want to add that Goinbroke2 deleted the posts himself. Then I just cleared away the deleted posts a few minutes ago. The only time Admin deletes posts is if they are violent, an attack, insulting, or are about home distilling. the first two are rarely seen, the last is upon occasion.

JMF

Definitely a no fight zone, but Goinbroke2 does have some legitimate points. I never read the posts of his that got deleted, but when I first came here only a few weeks ago it seemed every time I mentioned something relating to alcohol in a post I automatically got some words about doing something illegal. It's rather off putting to have to defend yourself over and over again. I mentioned that I was in the beginning stages of researching of opening a distillery and that I wasn't new to alcohol and a few people automatically assumed that I was doing something illegal, which is far from the case. I've had a background in wine making for almost 20 years and did do some lab distilling in college. Anyway, I've learned a lot from this forum and will continue to post and read.

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

Anyone interested in "home distilling" should take a look at the "DOWN AND DIRTY" section on this ADI website. Here is someone who did it right, spent his own money and accomplished his goal of a small distillation operation at home (though not in the house). And the price tag is not prohibitive (he posted his expenses). So anyone who claims that doing this the proper way, getting a license and establishing a small operation at home is too hard, too expensive, to much trouble is simply not determined enough, or lazy, or simply taking the "rebel" posture to avoid responsibility for following the same rules everyone else must follow. Congrats to the bold new distiller who built this small distillery the right way.

[Absinthe Pete]

Very interesting read. I'm going to go get some info from the TTB.

[cowdery]

I chose to revive this thread to brag on Tom and Lianne Herbruck. This week their Tom's Foolery distillery in Chagrin Falls, Ohio, shipped their first product, an applejack (apple brandy), in an initial shipment of 240 bottles.

The point of this post is to show that the "hobby distillery" can be done; legally, properly, and by people of ordinary means, if you don't mind some long hard work. In using the term "hobby distillery" I mean no disrespect. They take their distillery seriously but as a sideline. They don't expect it to support their family anytime...well, ever.

The distillery is in a small barn about ten yards from but not in any way connected to their house.

More here.

[Panama Jack]

interesting story for those of us who would like to start small and cut our teeth at a small operation before we go all in. any way to get more information on their business plan and their still?

on a separate note anyone know who made the 13th colony distillery still on the home page here at adi?

[Ralph at Tuthilltown]

Congratulations to Tom and Lianne Herbruck! It CAN be done. And no need for a "hobbyist" distiller to be illegal unless it's more important to be the radical wildcatter outside the law than it is to make spirits. Well done.

R

[daveflintstone]

No need for a hobbyist distiller to operate outside the current U.S. regulations as long you've got a big enough property and want to sell your wares. Everyone else, you are criminals. Just like the people who brew beer at home. oh wait, they changed that law, didn't they?

[delaware_phoenix]

Dabney, in the foreward to Mountain Spirits mentions that moonshining is defined in law as malum prohibitum which means it's considered bad because someone made it against the law. It's not available on goggle, but Three Felonies a Day is an interesting read.

[cowdery]

interesting story for those of us who would like to start small and cut our teeth at a small operation before we go all in. any way to get more information on their business plan and their still?

on a separate note anyone know who made the 13th colony distillery still on the home page here at adi?

I talked to them quite a bit along the way and I would characterize their journey as very personal and idiosyncratic. They spent a lot of time (years) mostly learning. They talked to a lot of different people, traveled, visited distilleries, went to ADI events, and their operation and vision evolved. I believe all of their equipment is second hand. If you want to know more about them, go to their web site and email them with questions. I wouldn't expect them to give anyone a free tutorial but they probably won't mind answering specific questions.

[Dado]

any way to get more information on their business plan and their still?

You can see there setup here, the stills look pretty identifiable.

http://www.applejackohio.com/eau-de-vie

For someone genuinely interested in small-scale production, it doesn't take much...