broon

GNS Quality

18 posts in this topic

Good morning all

A quick question for the collective expertise out there. We use grain spirit from one of the main UK suppliers. It's the best quality wheat-based NGS they supply and is supplied at c.96% abv. Although it is "neutral", it's still noticeably tainted with the aniseed and black pepper flavours you get in wheat based spirit. This gives it a noticeable back-of-the-tongue 'burn' which is still present post-distillation (even where we take relatively chunky heads and tails cuts). For info, we run low and slow in a potstill (albeit with a couple of column plates) with output at c.88% abv.

My questions are:

1. Have any of you noticed similar with their NGS supply?

2. Any preferences in NGS suppliers?

3. Should we be rectifying with an initial distillation to clean the spirit prior to our product run (gin)? I've picked up mixed views on this. (I should note that as a small producer we currently buy duty paid so a prior distillation will result in a potentially significant reduction in yield).

Thanks all

 

 

 

 

 

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what do you mean, you take heads and tail cuts in NGS with a pot still ? You can't take a head cut in something that has been distilled above 96, with a still that only goes to 88. All of the "heads and tails have already been taken out, which is why they call it NGS.

what might be happening is that the water you are mixing it with so you don't blow up your pot still, is tainted.  I've always wondered about water quality in re-bubbled NGS mixed with new water.   If the equipment and technique can not seperate the dewatered ethanol to 96+, does it instead carry over the minerals and other impurities that might be in the water, becuase the ethanol is "lifting if off" at 173+ degrees?

some re-bubblers use RO water in their dilution process, but even RO doesn't take out all impurities like mirex,heavy metals, etc.  the best bet would be to RO then put that water into your pot and carry it over as just steam (212degrees). Then use that water to dilute your NGS , heat it up, follow up with charcoal filter, and presto. Handmade Craft Vodka . 

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We've carbon treated gns, works well and is simple. I disagree with Rogers statement that GNS doesn't have heads and tails components, there is a pretty big range of quality and flavor to different varieties and sources of neutral spirit. Having redistilled GNS in a vodka still many times, there are clearly heads hearts and tails to it by flavor and aroma. Similarly, you can something akin to a heads fraction from redistilling GNS in a non-vodka still but it's not a practical way to remove the problem components. 

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I'm not on here to argue. Everybody needs to do their own thing. I'm just saying  that if you keep redistilling a product that has already been taken to azeotrope, you can't make it into, Supertrope ? :) 

You can however change it back to a less than pure product with water, and the stuff that's stuck in the joints of your distillation equipment, and pull that off in the next round (or 50 rounds) of distillation, and extract some of those added impurities in the re-distillation process, that smells like a head.

You can even add things in that water that you can't get out at 88% like lime that gives your redistilling spirit a different mouth feel, that makes you think it is "more pure" but it's really more of a mask.

if you do however have a still that can make NGS better than NGS, I would love to see the specs. 

All of that said, when we make a vodka out of wine, vs for example wheat, we control our proofs to the minimum of the legal requirement to intentionally leave flavor and aroma nuance in the product. To me, NGS is just too ordinary. 

Prost 

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Can someone tell me how many people out of one hundred could tell if you made the NSG from sugar, wine, or grain?  I suspect it is very few, but I do not know that.  Next, would any subtle difference in the sugar, wine, grain neutral spirits carry over into a gin after you get the required primarily juniper character?  Finally, wouldn't it always be better, as a gin maker, if I started with the cleanest spirits available, that is, with the stuff that comes off industrial stills?  

I don't intend these as rhetorical questions.  I am honestly curious.

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Anyone here (other than us) buying 200 pf GNS?  We do nothing other than proof with RO (then again, what could you do).

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3 hours ago, dhdunbar said:

Can someone tell me how many people out of one hundred could tell if you made the NSG from sugar, wine, or grain?  I suspect it is very few, but I do not know that.

Considering there's still 5% "other stuff" and the human palate can detect down to PPM of a great many compounds, I'd hazard just about anyone could tell the difference, side by side.

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The human nose is pretty remarkable detecting 2,4,6-TCA (cork taint stuff) at a concentration of 4-6 ng/L or parts per trillion.  Amazing really. Makes that 5% even more important to clean up.  Cork taint, now that might be an interesting topic to bat around.

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1 hour ago, indyspirits said:

Anyone here (other than us) buying 200 pf GNS?  We do nothing other than proof with RO (then again, what could you do).

you can only have 200proof or 100% in a vacum. 

I find many differences in GNS suppliers. We have one we really like and stick with them. An use another for specialty stuff.

And no, it is not Ultra Pure, we go right to the source.

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52 minutes ago, Dehner Distillery said:

you can only have 200proof or 100% in a vacum. 

Incorrect. You can use a 3Å molecular sieve.  

 

 

 

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Did some impromptu sniff tests of the GNS samples at the ADI show.  Across most vendors, Wheat had the most neutral aroma, followed by corn, followed by cane.  Most of the cane samples had very distinct sugar/molasses notes, very obvious.

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On 4/5/2017 at 7:26 PM, indyspirits said:

Incorrect. You can use a 3Å molecular sieve.  

 

 

 

Your incorrect----- 

Here is a super crazy idea...... If someone pays .22 per bottle for GNS and they are going to thin it down with water anyways, then who the  HECK cares about a molecular sieve anyways.... And no you can't get 100% alc.... It will suck the water right out of the air. So Tell me O wise ONE ..... is 99.99% = 100% NO!!!! DUH......

You would only use something like that at an ethanol plant or at your distillery when you can't hit 190... just guessing...

Have a nice day.

 

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Wouldn't it be wonderful if you could buy some piece of magic equipment that would make commercial bio-ethanol into something other than what it is, but unfortunately it's just not so.  it will always be warmed up fuel, made from mash more than likely treated with mass doses of antibiotics, delivered to your door with the faint odor of a PVC Tote.

Actually that would be a pretty good Craft brand name: TOTE-VODKA

"I love the smell of plastic in my Martini"

Prost

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Roger said:

 it will always be warmed up fuel, more than likely treated with mass doses of antibiotics

That's a joke, right??

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Huh ?   You're not aware of the battle between big ethanol and the FDA over the use of antibiotics ? It's what you do instead of keeping your equipment clean, and then the grain is sold into the domestic food chain. 

You know, instead of the hours you spend cleaning inside your fermenters, mash tuns and stills keeping the bacteria at bay? Followed by the painstaking process of following  strict operating protocols, but still lose 5% + to other organisms feasting on the sugars that you choose not to kill with synthetic chemical antibiotics? 

Hopefully most or all of the antibiotics are killed in the vapor carry over at 95+%, but that can't be said for everything that is added thereafter when water is added with unknown contaminants that are pushed over as low as 80 proof. 

But boy, it sure is cheap !

 

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Yes, Im aware of that. But your post above could be read that antibiotics are added to the distillate not used to clean up fermenters.

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Fixed it.  I take no position on antibiotics in water used post NGS distillation. Other than the crap in our nations water supply, lakes and rivers, of course. 

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