AB1965

Bourbon/American Whiskey

14 posts in this topic

Hi All,

I have been researching whether there are any American Whiskey style (bourbon) Distilleries outside of the US but have been unable to find any other place. Does anyone know of any?

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10 hours ago, Foreshot said:

Like Champagne, Bourbon is a protected name for the American product. You can find it made outside the US but it will not be called bourbon. 

http://www.fredminnick.com/2014/06/04/australian-distiller-labels-whiskey-bourbon-others-use-term-marketing/

Yes I know all that, I was just trying to find any other American Whiskey Distilleries outside the US. :)

 

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"American Whiskey" comes under the rubric (l) Class 12; products without geographical designations but distinctive of a particular place. 

That section provides, (1) The whiskies of the types specified in paragraphs (b) (1), (4), (5), and (6) of this section are distinctive products of the United States and if produced in a foreign country shall be designated by the applicable designation prescribed in such paragraphs, together with the words “American type” or the words “produced (distilled, blended) in __”, the blank to be filled in with the name of the foreign country: Provided, That the word “bourbon” shall not be used to describe any whisky or whisky-based distilled spirits not produced in the United States. If whisky of any of these types is composed in part of whisky or whiskies produced in a foreign country there shall be stated, on the brand label, the percentage of such whisky and the country of origin thereof.

That is the law in the United States.  It is not the law in Tuva because the US senate can't make laws that apply in Tuva.  

Search the TTB COLAs online public database for examples of class 12 products and you will find out if anyone has label approvals for American type whiskey produced in another country for export to the US.  However, you will not find out if someone is making it in Laos. 

I think that for your purposes, the important whiskey type listed in Class 12 is whiskey of the type specified in (b)(1).  The rest are, respectively,  "blended whiskey," which is not what you might think it is; a blend of straight whiskeys; and spirit whiskey; all of which, I think,  were meant to allow you to call just about anything that is derived only from grain a whiskey of some sort or the other.  They are all, including (b)(1), in my opinion, special interest legislation marching under the banner of consumer protection.  That few of you can tell me the standard for blended whiskey demonstrates the proof of that.

But I suspect that when you use the term "American type," you are using in loosely,  which is okay, as long as we understand that you probably mean only those products that comport to the (b)(1) standard, which is:

(1)(i) “Bourbon whisky”, “rye whisky”, “wheat whisky”, “malt whisky”, or “rye malt whisky” is whisky produced at not exceeding 160° proof from a fermented mash of not less than 51 percent corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 125° proof in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.

I will omit the provisions related to corn and straight whiskey that follow.

Add to that the requirement that it be bottled at not less than 80 proof, which is true of all types of the class whiskey, and you have described American type whiskey as we here in the US understand it.

So your question is really whether anyone elsewhere is making whiskey in the manner in which products that would allow them to import them into the US if they are labeled, for example, as "American Type Rye."  This is not easily answered, because, unless some in  Mozambique wants to export their product to the US, the person has no reason to label the stuff as "American."  Frankly who outside of the US gives a hoot?  Who in Johannesburg cares that the whiskey down the street is made in an American style?  I wouldn't and don't.  And given the propensity to play with aging rule so that nanoseconds suffice, I think that a lot of US producers don't really care either. 

 

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4 hours ago, dhdunbar said:

So your question is really whether anyone elsewhere is making whiskey in the manner in which products that would allow them to import them into the US if they are labeled, for example, as "American Type Rye."  This is not easily answered, because, unless some in  Mozambique wants to export their product to the US, the person has no reason to label the stuff as "American."  Frankly who outside of the US gives a hoot?  Who in Johannesburg cares that the whiskey down the street is made in an American style?  I wouldn't and don't.  And given the propensity to play with aging rule so that nanoseconds suffice, I think that a lot of US producers don't really care either. 

 

As stated already, I know all about what constitutes "American Whiskey and Bourbon".

In addition, I am not looking to export/import either.

Who gives a hoot? I do as I am trying to ascertain if there are in fact other Distilleries around the globe that make Bourbon style Whiskey.

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Since you know what the standards are, then you know the questions to ask.  So, rather than asking, "Is there anyone who makes American style whiskey?" ask, "Is there anyone, outside of the United States,  who makes a whiskey with a mash bill of grain only, with 51% or more of a single grain, that is distilled to 160 proof or less, aged in new charred oak at not more than 125 degrees proof, and bottled at not less than 40% abv?"  

That is not ambiguous.  

"American type" is ambiguous because a lot of people are going to try to answer your question who don't know what you already do, what American type means.  

It is also ambiguous, because as the term is used in US regulations, "American type" also includes "a mixture of neutral spirits and not less than 5 percent on a proof gallon basis of whisky, or straight whisky, or straight whisky and whisky, if the straight whisky component is less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis."  The answer to your question would be "yes" if there is someone, somewhere making that sort of NSG diluted product.  However, I think that is not what you want to know.

 

 

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21 hours ago, dhdunbar said:

Since you know what the standards are, then you know the questions to ask.  So, rather than asking, "Is there anyone who makes American style whiskey?" ask, "Is there anyone, outside of the United States,  who makes a whiskey with a mash bill of grain only, with 51% or more of a single grain, that is distilled to 160 proof or less, aged in new charred oak at not more than 125 degrees proof, and bottled at not less than 40% abv?"  

That is not ambiguous.  

"American type" is ambiguous because a lot of people are going to try to answer your question who don't know what you already do, what American type means.  

It is also ambiguous, because as the term is used in US regulations, "American type" also includes "a mixture of neutral spirits and not less than 5 percent on a proof gallon basis of whisky, or straight whisky, or straight whisky and whisky, if the straight whisky component is less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis."  The answer to your question would be "yes" if there is someone, somewhere making that sort of NSG diluted product.  However, I think that is not what you want to know.

 

 

I did ask, "outside the US" see initial post.

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My last word on this, I promise.  Bottom line .  American style is governed by US regulations.  That said, "American style" is the same in Tasmania as Tulsa.  If you want to know if someone is making American style whiskey anywhere "outside of the US," you have to know what American style is. 

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45 minutes ago, dhdunbar said:

My last word on this, I promise.  Bottom line .  American style is governed by US regulations.  That said, "American style" is the same in Tasmania as Tulsa.  If you want to know if someone is making American style whiskey anywhere "outside of the US," you have to know what American style is. 

That god for that!

Forget I asked

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Not exactly the same, but in the same vein, it might be worth looking into how American craft distilleries are handling making, Irish and Scotch style whiskies. A lot of American craft distillers are in that same situation of trying to make a whiskey that isn't defined by the law or known by consumers. 

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We just introduced our "Irish" whisky, but of course we can't call it that. What we can say is that it's a triple-potstilled single malt whisky with a green label with shamrocks, named "Mulligan XXX". We're hoping people get the idea. Helping things out, a Irish waitress at one tasting we did sniffed it, and said, "Jameson". I'm happy with that.

 

As far as the "known by customers" part, while the first batch was aging, we sold it white at 110 proof and called it "poitin", because it's identical in specifications to that tradition Irish folk spirit. Of course, almost no-one knew what the hell poitin was.

 

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12 minutes ago, Cultus Bay Distillery said:

,,,it's a triple-potstilled single malt whisky with a green label.....

 

A couple of points about this quote. Traditionally Irish whiskey is triple distilled, but also the traditional product was not "single malt" (I assume you mean 100% malted barley) Traditional Irish Whiskey contains a large % of un-malted grain.

Also your reference to the green label, be careful that is not exactly the same green as a prominent Irish brand. A Tasmanian winemaker near me was threatened to be sued  because his label colour was too similar to a big European wine label

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Ok. My research indicated that not all poitin was made with any unmalted barley, although lots of "less historically accurate" poitin is made with all kinds of fermentables. For reasons of the stipulations of our Washington State Craft Distillers license, which decrees that >50% materials be certified grown in Washington, and because certified barley malt is available to us, while certified unmalted barley is not, we'll stick with the grain bill we're using.

At any rate, the green label, the shamrocks, and the name don't seem to legally imply a specific grain bill, and it's a very nice whiskey.

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