Jump to content

Making rye whiskey--where are the discussion threads?


KRS

Recommended Posts

I don't find anything in any ADI forum when I search for "rye whiskey." What am I doing wrong? Never mind, moving right along...I would like to know how to ferment rye effectively and then distill it. My one and only attempt went down the drain. The fermentation was a gloppy mess, yes, I used a variety of enzymes under the physically-present supervision of Jason from Speciality Enzymes, it stopped fermenting in about 3 days, it never got to vapor temperature in the still (DragonStill-4 plates), after two hours of waiting, we flushed it down the drain. I've gotten some helpful advice from Lake Distilling that I appreciate. Nonetheless, is rye so hard to distill that ADI members just aren't bothering? I really like rye whiskey and I want to make it at my distillery. I'd like to find out what is working for fellow members. Cautionary tales will also be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this has been discussed in the past, but the search function on this forum does seem to have some issues. If I do a search for "rye" I get no results?!

Most people are probably not aware of this, but you can use Google to search one specific website for any combination of words. This method frequently produces better search results on lots of websites, not just the ADI forum.

Search on Google for: "site:adiforums.com rye mash"

You get these results:

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=off&q=site%3Aadiforums.com+rye+mash&oq=site%3Aadiforums.com+rye+mash&gs_l=serp.3...1939.2297.0.2633.2.2.0.0.0.0.97.191.2.2.0....0...1c.1.51.serp..2.0.0.yEpmAk3KfWg

Lots of previous topics discussing rye:

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1063

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=4056

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3630

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1817

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=2475

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1304

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=2377

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=1881

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3460

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3609

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=3307

http://adiforums.com/index.php?showtopic=4371

Happy reading!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this has been discussed in the past, but the search function on this forum does seem to have some issues. If I do a search for "rye" I get no results?!

It seems almost every computer based search function does not allow searches of less than 4 characters. A way to get past that is to enter an asterisk after the term, which the search query will recognize and process. Give it a try, search for rye*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems almost every computer based search function does not allow searches of less than 4 characters. A way to get past that is to enter an asterisk after the term, which the search query will recognize and process. Give it a try, search for rye*

Thanks for that info! Also if searching for "rye mash" including the actual quote marks helps. All the same I think using the Google site search tool does provide better results.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for all the links, HedgeBird. I've read them and I think some of them will be very helpful. I was intrigued by a post that said an historical source suggested vegetable oil on the kettle. Also, thanks to Skaalvenn for the search info.

What's missing, though, is actually hearing from people about the distilling process. I can see that our mash didn't go well, but assuming it is less gummy and foamy 2nd time around, just how thick is it when it's ready to go into the still? I've read "thinned out" or variations a few times, but what consistency is that? I've made rum and brandy, and what went into the still was ordinary liquid. Should I expect to have something along the lines of a cream soup? I've been collecting opinions and experiences posted here and elsewhere regarding making rye whiskey, so I guess it's time to synthesize all the info and get back in the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Impossible to describe consistency using subjective terms, everyone's idea of soup is different. I wouldn't describe it as gummy cream soup however. If you talk in grain/water ratios it's at least comparable objectively.

With rye - suggest starting with a lower initial gravity target and then working upwards from there, until you get what are looking for, and not try to go whole hog again. Something nice and thin, target of around 5%, which would be around 1.5lbs per gallon if you are using enzymes and fermenting/distilling on grain. It's much easier to get a handle on how rye reacts and differs from the lower-glucan grains by taking it in smaller steps. You might want to go with the protein rest as well as the TL.

You might want to recalibrate or at least check your thermometers and pH probes. Assuming you used the full compliment of enzymes (AA, GA, Sebflo-TL), you shouldn't have stuck your ferment and you shouldn't be looking at anything that is sticky or gummy post ferment. It's very possible that you were working off incorrect temp or pH measurements and ended up deactivating your enzymes.

You are using a steam jacket still? Also, get some anti-foam, Fermcap-S or any other silicone antifoam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, James. I was and will be working with flour for the next 150 lbs--can't afford to throw it away, and I haven't got time to make bread. I have rye malt and 2-row waiting i line. I am thinking about taking the flour home and doing 10-gallon bathes in the home-brew system. Life being what it is, no doubt when I've got the flour recipe perfected, the flour will be gone and I'll be facing rye malt. Moving right along...

We have a 9.5HP steam boiler--way too big for what we need but the smallest we could buy that meets SoCal AQMD (air quality mgmt district) regulations--the strictest in the USA, I believe. For the StillDragon, our kettle is a 55-gal stainless steel barrel with a copper-coil inside for the steam heat. We didn't have good steam valve control, but now it's much improved. Regarding ph, we have a very good Hanna ph meter, and an excellent refractometer. However, we didn't have any temperature probes really designed for the kettle, but now we do. Also, it was cooked way too long, although 156 degrees apparently is reasonable. Actually, I'm quite confused about the mash cooking time. There seems to be a great deal of difference of opinion on that.

As far as enzymes and other adjuncts, I'm much clearer on proportions and timing. Someone talked about the mystery of the stuck mash--it's not a complete mystery. I don't work alone, and despite my concerns, the yeast was pitched when the mash was still much too warm. I'm assuming the tiny creatures died untimely deaths. The next time we'll wait for it to cool to a more appropriate temperature.

One of the biggest problems for getting a grip on making a rye whiskey is that I'm using flour--until it's all gone. A lot of suggestions have been based on using the grain. I'm determined to get it right, and I'll extrapolate from what I've learned here. Just the same, opinions about working successfully with rye flour will be appreciated. Thanks again to everybody who's taken an interest.

KRS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hear you - had a similar scenario where we experimented with pre gelatinized corn in the same ratios as cracked corn. I don't think a cement mixer would have helped. I scooped myself a nice bowl, added some salt and a pat of butter, then proceeded to drop the temp, add amylase, thin it out, and heat it back up again to drop the rest of the grain bill.

Can you share the details on your steam coil? Have a similar need and have been struggling to find any kind of real-world details on coil sizing. Length? Diameter? Steam trap?

jb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wish I could offer more input, but we have never really had the gummy issue that so many folks describe having with rye, so have never needed to figure out how to solve that problem. (lots of other issues along the way, just not this specific one)

We use rye flour as well and also distill on the grain with a steam fired still.

I doubt grain vs flour makes much difference.

Our grain bill is only 60-70% rye

We are not using malted rye, just regular rye flour

We use about 10% distillers malt in our grain bill

Malt goes into the mash first; before we add the rye flour

We have a big ass mixer on the mash tun and stir the s**t out of everything

We ferment hot and fast (after 3 days its "finished" not "stuck" if you will)

our mash is thick but is not "sticky" at all

Our conversion/efficiency is a lot lower than others / we have a low Proof Gallon per Bushel

If I had to hazard a suggestion of just one thing to try it would be to try adding 15% distillers malt to your grain bill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for adding information, Hedgebird. I don't know what you mean by "grain bill." Especially since my current basis is flour. I take it that you put in 10% malted rye to 90% flour in your flour wash. Regarding sticky, it's been long enough since the attempt, I don't remember if it was actually sticky or gummy as much as thick and viscous. It was tedious washing the residue from the still, but that was because it was like overcooked gravy on the coils. I thought the paint mixer added to the thickening since the mash was pretty much like a thick gravy, and gravy only gets thicker as you heat it and stir it, although it does get smoother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rye is not easy. But not a nightmare like some think. What would you be willing to pay, now this would be reasonable, but if a rye recipe was published, say a how to manual, on amazon, that works, if you do everything right and have good mashing practices, what price would you pay. I would publish one if there is interest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, how fast can you get it published? Seriously, go to Amazon and search for other how -to make spirits publications, decide what seems fair to you in comparison to their content and set your price. You'd be self-publishing, I'll assume, and I can give you very good marketing strategies. But I'm using my phone, and it's a pain to go on and on. I'll email you when I get back to my computer. I'd be happy to help you become famous!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for adding information, Hedgebird. I don't know what you mean by "grain bill." Especially since my current basis is flour. I take it that you put in 10% malted rye to 90% flour in your flour wash. Regarding sticky, it's been long enough since the attempt, I don't remember if it was actually sticky or gummy as much as thick and viscous. It was tedious washing the residue from the still, but that was because it was like overcooked gravy on the coils. I thought the paint mixer added to the thickening since the mash was pretty much like a thick gravy, and gravy only gets thicker as you heat it and stir it, although it does get smoother.

Your mash bill, or grain bill is a term used to describe the type and ratio of grains used to create your mash. For example; Jack Daniels uses a grain bill of 80% corn, 8% rye and 12% malted barley. The term is still used even if your grains have been milled into flour. All the grain your using is going to be milled to some degree; flour just means its been ground very fine. My grain bill is, approximately:

60% Rye (flour)

30% Wheat (flour)

10% Distillers Malt (flour)

The distillers malt is a specific type of malt with a very high diastic power:

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Distilling/distillersmalt.htm#distillers

http://www.hillbillystills.com/Distillers_Malt_p/ccdm.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rye is not easy. But not a nightmare like some think. What would you be willing to pay, now this would be reasonable, but if a rye recipe was published, say a how to manual, on amazon, that works, if you do everything right and have good mashing practices, what price would you pay. I would publish one if there is interest.

A few months back I hired Distillery Resources review my entire mash process to try and help solve some specific issues we where having. Other than having to put up with his southern accent on the phone it has been a very worth while investment. Highly recommended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How finely ground is your rye flour?

I think we started with a 1/8 screen initially and then quickly moved to 1/16 screen size for the rye and wheat. This last grain order I changed suppliers and purchased rye flour they had in stock instead of having it milled specifically for me. It seems to be about the same as the 1/16 stuff. Its still more course than your white baking flour but pretty fine. I think the distillers malt is probably closer to the white baking flour. I do not mill my own grains, so I am a bit at the mercy of the mills if you will..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the glowing recommendation. Southern accent poke and all. I have decided I will do it in my spare time, so it may take a while. Maybe by months end you will be able to purchase it. I am thinking about doing a series of papers if you will on different aspects of distilling. This will be the first real info published. I know there are a lot of how to books if you will out there, but they are full of misinformation. It is sad. Some are endorsed and published by the very groups setup for microdistillers. I will keep you posted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hedgebird, thank you for the explanation. Turns out I could have asked my husband--he and I really need to see more of each other! :lol: Thank you also for the clarification about the rye malt. I had been thinking you meant the malted grain.

When Distilled Resources said there's a lot of misinformation out there, I couldn't help wondering if some of it could really be differences in methods that led to successfully distilled spirits. By the time I read the posts on this thread and all of the links to threads that Hedgebird sent me, I think I'm more mystified than ever. Obviously, though, there's quite a range of producing rye whiskey that people like well enough to drink it. I'm looking forward to getting the book Distilled Resources is publishing--could you hurry with that? ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our rye is actually 100% rye content. No barley, no corn. Its 54% rye malt, 46% unmalted rye. Its tricky, but enzymes are your friend! We mash in a direct steam injected 'reaction tank' and distill in a steam jacketed still.

Speaking of which our first rye malt whiskey is set for release this fall.... just sayin.....

Jake

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...