Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Looking for some insight and resolutions from anyone that has experienced the same situation...

Currently working (more like forcing!) a whiskey COLA approval through. I teamed up with a local brewery to make the beer and I distilled it to produce a whiskey. To reflect this I stated "Distilled from full flavored craft beer" and TTB is not having it because the word "beer" shows up on a "distilled spirit" product. So they are requesting a formula approval. I explained that it is merely distilled from a beer mash just like any whiskey albeit a particular kind of beer mash (chocolate oatmeal stout beer mash and doppelbock beer mash). They want the formula approval (which I don't want to wait around for, of course) to decide whether it should be classified as a whiskey or a distilled spirit specialty product. Seems absurd since it is "Spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain at less than 95% alcohol by volume, etc etc" just as defined by regulation. The mash of grain is called a distiller's beer so I'm not sure why they're looking at it as if I've done something ridiculous and added beer to a whiskey.

Anyways, I see Corsair has their Oatmeal Stout Whiskey with a statement "Distilled from an Oatmeal Stout Distiller's Beer" so I'm going to try and reword it like that. It seems Great Lakes Distillery did something similar by teaming up with a brewery nearby using their pumpkin lager and they've got a statement of "Spirits distilled from grain and pumpkin with spices and natural flavors" which seems they had to go the distilled spirits specialty route.

However, a distilled spirit specialty product is stated in the BAM as "Generally, any class and/or type of distilled spirits that contain or are treated with flavoring and/or coloring materials and/or nonstandard blending or treating materials or processes" which doesn't apply to a simple distiller's beer mash as I did none of the listed items.

So, that is my rant. Curious how anyone else may have listed the Class/Type for a similar situation, if any. I imagine it'll eventually get approved as a whiskey since the formula will show 50%+ of the ingredients are malt and barley...so perhaps I should just suck it up and wait for the formula...but then again it always rubs me the wrong way on how self-righteous TTB can be...

Thanks for any and all help, suggestions and comments!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried the same thing and had to change any mention of beer to barley. I'd like to see what they say about distillers beer. Do you plan to have it hit some oak barrels? We registered two COLA's, one for no oak as a DSS and one that hits oak for a day as a whiskey. We where going for a shine so people could taste the beer grain bill and not the oak. The TTB will make this into a DSS if it does not touch oak and if it's not distilled as a vodka because it's a nonstandard process. Sure wish they'd make a standard process for grain new make that's 160 proof or below and doesn't touch oak.

TTB is just trying to limit misleading statements, because technically it's not beer that you're using. It's a grain bill from a beer and you're using the mash that's before the boiled wort. It never really becomes a beer. I was upset as you where when i got denied, but after thinking about it, I could understand their reasoning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

In my experience they can be very very particular about where the individual words appear at on the label. Also, there's been a huge expansion in the craft industry and they aren't used to dealing with all these new types of spirits. Give 'em time to get it sorted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Don't mean to hijack your thread but we're going to hopefully doing something similar (we just got our DSP) and were getting ready to submit a COLA online and its also asking for a formula - I assume this is an in-house formula then? And is it as simple as saying "XYZ beer for PDQ brewing distilled once to 60 proof and a second time to 150 proof"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't mean to hijack your thread but we're going to hopefully doing something similar (we just got our DSP) and were getting ready to submit a COLA online and its also asking for a formula - I assume this is an in-house formula then? And is it as simple as saying "XYZ beer for PDQ brewing distilled once to 60 proof and a second time to 150 proof"?

Completing the form is pretty basic and the more vague you are the better (in my experience).

http://www.ttb.gov/forms/f511038.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hades: if you are distilling a product then you will need to supply a formula online (ttboline.gov) and then apply for COLA with the formula attached. If you are buying the spirit the rules change. I believe you will still need to reference the original formula on the COLA without needing formula approval yourself - but I've never done that so I'm not an authority on the subject..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hades: if you are distilling a product then you will need to supply a formula online (ttboline.gov) and then apply for COLA with the formula attached. If you are buying the spirit the rules change. I believe you will still need to reference the original formula on the COLA without needing formula approval yourself - but I've never done that so I'm not an authority on the subject..

You do not need to supply a formula for every COLA submitted. So long as your product falls within the normal standards of identity you won't need a formula--I've never needed one yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Wait, so if I label my product as a "whiskey" I don't need to submit a formula? They will just assume that I'm following the rules? Doesn't that place an awful lot of trust that the producers wouldn't break code? Although that would explain why I've talked to several people making "whiskey" from sugar and "vodka" at 180 proof..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends on which type of whiskey you are producing, whether you are adding flavoring, how long its been aged, etc. For example, according to the current TTB list of products requiring formula (pre-COLA) approval, "A blend of straight bourbon whiskies" does not require formula approval, but "Blended bourbon whiskey" does require formula approval. Also, flavored whisky requires formula approval. Keep in mind, the TTB reserves the right to require "a pre-COLA product evaluation for a specific product even though no such requirement is listed in the charts."

Here is the chart:

http://www.ttb.gov/industry_circulars/archives/2007/pre-cola_eval_spirits.pdf

Here is an app that will tell you if you need formula approval provided by the TTB:

http://www.ttb.gov/tutorials/ic2007-4_help.shtml

Here is the TTB page explaining the formula process:

http://www.ttb.gov/formulation/pre_cola.shtml

Tory

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TTB says it requires a formula for any product designated as only as "whiskey," as opposed to rye whiskey or wheat whiskey, etc.

I called and asked, "So you want a formula for just plain whiskey, but not bourbon, or whiskey distilled from malt mash, or corn whiskey, but of its just whiskey, you want a formula?" They said yes,and without further prompting, "Because of all the white whiskey out there." Okay.

You can tell whether you need a formula or not by looking at the TTB website. It is pretty straight forward. You still must have on file a statement of production procedures, which takes you from the grain bill to the distillate on which you make your production gauge. That means amending your registration for every new grain bill. That = ying to make your grain bills as broad as possible.

But you need not describe, on a formula or in the statement of process, the type of storage that you use. If you are claiming a designation that requires storage in new charred oak, your storage account records will have to show that you stored the product in new charred oak. If you are making whiskey distilled from malt mash, the same records will have to show that you stored in in reused oak. That is, where the manner of storage is a part of the standard of identity, you will have to have records that show that the product meets the standard. Generally, but not always, the formula requirement comes into play when you change class and type within the processing account (redistiling NSG over juniper and other botanicals to make gin; putting peach flavor in vodka; concocting a cordial; breathing cinnamon fire into bourbon; making a a premixed cocktail. etc.. Whiskey is my not always exception and there may be more if you dig. The best advice is to just fly byt he book of BAM and remember advice I give when I teach about regulation of the alcohol industry in SIPS classes in Seattle - If someone asks "why?" the only and best answer is, "It is because they say it is." That saves a lot of fretting over fantastic frustrations and stupidities and frees you to go about the actual business of distilling.

So we have a sort of thumb nail guide. Statements of process for everything you do in the production account, which are a part of your registration, so amend the registration on permits on line. Neither a statement of process or formula for what you legally do within the storage account - exception just plain whiskey as described above and I'll bet TTB won't ask for formulas in most cases anyway; and formuals for changes of class and type within the processing account.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...