bluestar

I don't understand, how can state law override federal law? In other words, if the bars and restaurants were violating the TTB before, they still are now. The old California law would had to have been more restrictive than the federal for this to legally be of consequence, which it well may have been?

Glad to see these spirit topics up and running, and pleased to post in gin first! I am curious about how many out there are producing a distilled (not redistilled) gin directly from mash or wash? If so, what kind of mash or wash are you using? Is it a traditional dry gin, or a genever? Update: is there no-one making distilled gin without redistillation? (I know there must be...)

Good luck to you! I see you are using one of Jesse's stills. Be interested to hear how it is working for you. Let us know when you are distributed in Chicago area.

What diameter is the triclamp? What would it cost to have one made up like it?

Don't know of a list. Michigan and Illinois allow for craft distilleries.

Well, that's a good offer. How about gin instead of whiskey ;-)

If it is only $10K per year difference, and all your other requirements are satisfied, get the storefront in a good location. Your direct sales will make up the difference in rent alone, and the ability to have passerby and planned "tour" traffic is great advertisement.

Agreed, repeated measurements on handheld AT will make it a minute or two, and if you run the desktop, it could be more than a few minutes. But I am surprised the hydrometer is comparable: the time it takes for temperature equilibration, temperature measurements, good practice of three repeat measurements, and the correction calculation is replaced by the integral temperature, averaging, and correction built into the AT. At least, I can't do it that fast. But final conclusion is the same. Get the AT you can afford, and if it is just the hand held, augment with the hydrometer. You might be right, you don't need to get the certified hydrometers per se, but I have only seen the accuracy required in certified hydrometers, and you have the advantage that they usually require either no correction, or a limited correction that is valid over the measurement range. None of the cheap hydrometers will do that.

Plenty. In Michigan: http://www.newhollandbrew.com/ http://www.michiganbrewing.com/

Not only is Anton Paar the best, for all practical purposes they are the only real choice because the resonant quartz u-tube they are based on remains a patented technology with no real competition. But the handheld and cheaper desktop units ARE NOT acceptable by the TTB for tax purposes. I have recently verified this by correspondence. The problem is that they are not quite as accurate as required. Sadly, I think Anton Paar could correct this by simply improving the cheaper units to provide a 2-3x increase in accuracy and certify it. You have to go to the next level desktop units, and the TTB itself uses the top end unit, which is 10-20x more expensive than the hand held, which is 50x more expensive than a NIST-IRS certified hydrometer. So, most compromise: get the hand held Anton Paar for $3K and get a set of NIST-IRS certified hydrometers for a few hundred dollars. Use the densitometer for working assessments, and verify and certify with hydrometer measurements when required by the TTB. The densitometer measurements take 10 seconds. The hydrometer measurements take a few minutes and some calculation.

Do you mean an Anton Paar densitometer versus a calibrated glass float hydrometer?

In fact, there are a great many common native botanicals that have been used in the USA for centuries, and even earlier by native Americans, that are not on the list. Some are regularly sold in food products (spicebush berry), others are commonly found in packaged teas (anise hyssop), and others are parts or forms of the plant otherwise on the GRAS list (prickley ash berry). Why many of these are not on GRAS probably relates more to their not having been adopted by commercial food producers in the 20th century, rather than any safety issue.

No, to meet the gauging requirements in that case you have to redistill, etc. See manual.

You can get certified hydrometers with a wide range of accuracies. You can get 1/10 accurate hydrometers that are NIST traceable for about $25 each, although each only covers about a 20 proof range, so you would need a few of these to cover the entire working range in a distillery.

Yes, that label indicates the general use of "Product of" to denote country of origin for import/export purposes. "Produced by" or "Made by" an entity "in" a location should be allowable. Sounds like the COLA response was poorly worded: they might have been trying to indicate that the "Product of" wording on front label is reserved for import/export designations, and therefore a state would not be allowed?

How quickly can this or the steam jacketed version be turned around? Is the ball also copper? Can this be scaled down to a 50 gallon charge unit, and if so, what would be the price?

The copper is removing sulfurous compounds, making copper sulfates and sulfide (blues, greens, and black). They are in the cherry juice, and you want them removed. If you are adding more sulfurous compounds as part of your process to disinfect, eliminating that could reduce the amount of deposits, but not eliminate it all. So, the only other thing to do would be to remove sulfur prior to going into the pot. Best way to do that: copper!!!. You could preheat the juice and run it hot through a copper catalyst: essentially a structured packing. That way you can refresh and replace the packing regularly instead of your pot! But you won't eliminate the cleaning step, just shift it. And you will still have to clean the pot, just with less deposit so perhaps less often.

Interested in learning details of your planned set up, or even what Sound Spirits has put together. Please post here, or drop a message ;-)

Does this suggest that one option is simply to label according to the class, with no need to indicate a type? So the complaint some may be getting from the TTB is choosing to label something as "white whiskey", because this suggests a non-existant type? While labeling something in the class "whiskey" and giving it a brand name such as "white dog" is allowed, since the class is correct, and the "white" modifier is not associated with the class label?

What certification are they asking for? For electrical, NRTL or UL? ASME for pressure or mechanical? Latter normally applies only for above 15 psi. Kothe has sold fair number of stills in USA, so they should be able to tell you what they have been able to provide in the past. NYS? What safety requirements does the state have?

We mild crush using a large mortar and pestle, both for overnight maceration followed by filtering, and to add to the boil. Anyone done any comparison of commercially bought dried juniper berries from different countries? We see a mild difference between what we have from Albania versus Bulgaria, but much different than Wisconsin.

Agree, check TTB. I believe you can not transport beer from a brewery to a distillery except by pipe. Holder over from prohibition and protection for American whiskey makers.

Yep, after a round of info exchange, quotes, and descriptions, indeed they are specifically catering to the grappa and eau de vie market in Europe for their pot stills.

Does what you are doing in WV really apply to the situation for a tasting room in Illinois as per the original poster? (Or Michigan, or others with a license that allows direct sales in a tasting room.) In that case, the items is moved from one status to the other, but it is not actually sold to the state? Or do I misunderstand what is required in Illinois?

OK, I don't disagree this is the nub of the problem. I just am not clear I see where the class of "spirits distilled from grain" comes from in BAM. Rather, this is a description for something within the catch all class "Distilled Spirits Specialty". If you look at the class definitions, it IS a "whiskey": "Spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain at less than 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof) having the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to whisky and bottled at not less than 40% alcohol by volume (80 proof)." You are correct, there is no existing type in the class that is un-aged, but the class description does not prevent it. I think what one would want to propose is since in the market place, the current common usage is to refer to an un-aged spirit that fits the class description "whisky" as a "white whisky", that it would be reasonable to add a new type called "white whiskey" that would reflect this. With the addition, the common usage and the class and type would be in agreement, and unambiguous with respect to the other currently produced spirits. It becomes a debatable issue whether one wants to reserve the class "whisky" only to aged product, but it is not in the class description, except if you want to argue that aging is a requirement to have "the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to whisky". The problem with that is the "generally" part, and if in common usage the public generally attributes these properties found in an un-aged whisky to be a whisky, then it can legitimately be added as a new type. JMHO.