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Patio29Dadio

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Patio29Dadio last won the day on September 9

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About Patio29Dadio

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  1. Patio29Dadio

    Thermal fluid system for still heating(?)

    Spent a good deal of time looking into this and changed my direction from Baine Marie to NG-fired low pressure steam. However, it added about $65k to my budget for a 36HP 1.4M BTU/hr low pressure steam boiler installed in my near-communist-controlled state. If you are thinking of Baine Marie because you don't have access to NG or propane, or you want to keep your capital outlays low, I would suggest you look into the alternative of electric-powered steam. The Sussex EX steam boiler looks like a good option to me. The largest of these is 18.2 HP which translates into about 600K BTU/h I think. The cost of the boiler alone is about $16-17k. You will also need about $7 in extras including the condensate return and the blow-down separator. The neato thing about these Sussex EX boilers is that they are a lower amp draw than others I considered. 480V/3PH/60HZ SUPPLY VOLTAGE, 217 AMPS. 240V/3PH/60HZ, 434 AMPS. The 11 HP version is 480V/3PH/60HZ SUPPLY VOLTAGE, 130 AMPS. 240V/3PH/60HZ, 260 AMPS and looks to be close to 400K BTU/h. I think this smaller unit should power a 150G still to get up to temp faster than the Baine Marie. It is probably $20k or so all in not including the cost of installation. Consider the cost of the Baine Marie components, the electrical installation costs and the boiler installation costs... do a spreadsheet. Gas steam is certainly going to be more affordable long-term for most... assuming you have gas.
  2. Patio29Dadio

    TTB stopped our production due to high proof

    Awesome post. Thanks. One follow up point/question. While I certainly get the significance of this proof variance in accuracy, your example above assumes an absolute difference. In other words, you show an absolute increase in proof for the higher-accuracy density meters. I think, unless I am missing something here, the actual result would be plus-or-minus accuracy that, over a larger sampling set, would potentially result in less average variance. In addition, the IRS-approved hydrometer and thermometer have accuracy variance. For example, +- .2 proof for the hydrometer, and +-.75 C for the thermometer. So we would need to calculate the variance for both for a valid comparison... and also include the variance for all the variables of human error and other unknown influences. If it were me as the king of the TTB, I would approve more of these less-expensive meters and just require that they are certified every year along with an annual certified lab test of each proofed product.
  3. Patio29Dadio

    CA Tasting Room 1.5oz Limit

    I joined CADG and would like to see the CA law changed to at least 2 oz., but preferably 3. 3 oz is two regular cocktails. Yes some people should not drive after two cocktails, but in general being able to serve two cocktails allows for a REAL tasting room experience without the hassle of dealing with people that stay too long and get inebriated... but while also helping to motivate customers to buy a bottle or three. At our place I anticipate some unhappy customers being told they cannot have a second cocktail (not quite open yet). They leave grumpy about the experience and it can negatively impact their opinion of the brand. Tasting rooms are really hospitality services and unreasonable rules damage the service capability. Starting a regular restaurant is a HUGE deal. It is can be a very big capital investment, and adds tremendous operating complexity to a business that is supposed to be manufacturing primarily. Selling a couple of full-sized cocktails to showcase our spirit, to provide a quality tasting room experience... it seems quite reasonable to me and seems unreasonable to limit the pour to 1.5 oz per person per day. This is about building a brand making spirits... the restaurant option might work for some as a revenue generator, but it detracts from the manufacturing focus IMO. Also, the CA craft industry needs to increase the 3-bottle sales limit to 6-bottles, or eliminate it completely. See Washington. In general there does not seem to be a rational argument for why CA craft spirits don't get the same tasting room capabilities as do beer and wine.
  4. Patio29Dadio

    TTB stopped our production due to high proof

    The regs say: It is fantastic to me that TTB would require this level of accuracy in a density meter while accepting manual measures that rely on human eyesight. For example, I know that I can take proof measurements using my certified and calibrated hydrometer and thermometer and be no more materially accurate than I would be using the SNAP-50. In terms of which Anton Parr density meters comply, there is a DMA 501 small bench-top device for around $8k but "only" has accuracy of Density: 0.001 g/cm³ & Temperature: 0.3 °C. The DMA-1001 is around $13k and has accuracy of Density: 0.0001 g/cm³ & Temperature: 0.05 °C. The "lowest" accuracy that the TTB will accept is the $25K+ DMA™ 4500 M: 0.00001 g/cm3 & Temperature at 0.01 °C. Again, that is crazy levels of accuracy required given the alternative of manual proofing and the potential for eyesight variance. I get the worry about tax revenue, but TTB should get real about this. I am starting to think that these density meter companies have some good lobbying.
  5. Patio29Dadio

    Anton Paar Alcolyzer ME For Sale

    I might be interested. How do I contact you to discuss?
  6. Patio29Dadio

    Water Chiller

    Good recommendations. Unfortunately the roof of the building cannot be used for installing a cooling tower. The other issue I think is that chilled water cannot be used for mash water unless the chiller is configured for potable water. At least that is what I have been told. And my chiller is not and I understand that this is an expensive modification. I know of one distillery that just uses straight city water for their cooling (it comes out cold)... they save it in an insulated hot water tank and use it for cleaning and mash water. But where I am located we have many days during the summer in the high 90s and 100s and the tap water will get to high 60s and even low 70s... thus the need to chill the condenser and mash crash cool water. I think what I came up with will work... having a 3-tank system with an insulated cooling tank, a non-insulated steel hot water receiving tank and a non-insulated water staging tank. Pump the water from the staging tank to the chill tank before going home for the night and start the chiller loop. In the morning drain the previous hot water that had been allowed to cool overnight into the staging tank. Then run production where I empty the chilled water tank and fill the hot water tank again. And repeat.
  7. Patio29Dadio

    Water Chiller

    I am busy designing a system for my new distillery. I have come up with the need for three tanks. Insulated cold water tank. Hot water tank, and staging tank. Chill the cold water over night to 50F in the insulated tank. Condenser and mash cooling hot water discharge to the non-insulated hot water tank where it will naturally cool over night. Before leaving for home, pump the water from the staging tank into the cold water tank and start the chiller circulation. In the morning pump the water from the over-night cooled water from the hot water tank to the staging tank. Repeat process. I will need a dedicated water pump or two for this, but not too expensive. Later I can work on automated controls. The initial problem I was running into is finding tanks that would take 160F-180F water. Poly tanks cannot. Also the insulated tank for the chilled water can be poly, but I don't like the way they look (a marshmallow as someone else described them) and they will sit next to my other shining equipment. A 1000G custom cold-liquor tank and a 1000G hot water tank was breaking my budget. So I got a quote for 2 sets of two 550G stainless totes that are stacked and will connect to fill as one set x2. The staging tank is poly. I continue to think this through and might tweak it before final purchase of equipment, but water cannot be wasted where I am located.
  8. Patio29Dadio

    Anton Paar Products

    On the Novatech.com sight and finding certified hydrometers for around $70 but the certified thermometers are $250+. Do I have that right?
  9. Patio29Dadio

    Tube-in-Tube Heat Exchanger Design and vendors

    I ordered one of Paul's heat tube in tube exchangers. I will report back once we start using it.
  10. Patio29Dadio

    150g w/8" 4-plate column Electric Pot Still

    Hi Rob. We visited you over a year ago and you sold me on Paul's equipment... however, I am going with the vertical system 😀. Glad to hear you are expanding and going to steam. Think you should be able to move this easily.
  11. Patio29Dadio

    Getting started, a building.

    Agree with captnKB. Closed water system will help. But there is the cleaning. Septic systems rely on bugs that you can hurt by flushing cleaning/sanitizing chemicals down the drain.
  12. Patio29Dadio

    Water Tank Ideas

    Just got a quote from the good people at National Tank Outlet (yes, they work weekends!) for a 550G Food Grade Stainless IBC tote with 2" polyurethane foam with a latex mastic protective coating. Less than $5k each. I think two of those will do the trick... much more than poly tanks, but will stay useful equipment even if we expand in the future to need larger tanks. I can stack these too... which saves floor space.
  13. Patio29Dadio

    Water Tank Ideas

    Looking at poly tanks online, they all appear to be rated at 120 degrees F max. The condenser water from a stripping run will be significantly hotter than that. Anyone else running a closed loop water system using poly for the hot liquor tank?
  14. Patio29Dadio

    Water Tank Ideas

    Exactly what I don't want... a mini marshmallow! Interesting. These are all horizontal tanks, right? Probably don't have the floor space. The stainless IBU totes are compelling because I can stack them and continue to make the case that they are forklift (non-permanent) tanks. The building official is obsessed with any piece of equipment that isn't portable needing engineering and permits... probably adding another $4k to the cost. However, when I look for insulation blanket for the totes, they start to look a bit like a square marshmallow... so maybe insulated poly is the answer. Probably no way around the engineering and permit requirement. Tiny muscles wins again!
  15. Patio29Dadio

    Water Tank Ideas

    Looking for insulated water tank options for my closed-loop system. Need 350-550 gallon tanks - one for hot water coming from the condensers that will be used for mashing and the other to hold water that is chilled to 50 degrees F or so overnight with my glycol chiller... so both are ready to go for the next day of production. Insulated hot water tanks (generally with an internal glass tank) are expensive and need engineering per my local city building official flexing his tiny muscles. Custom-made insulated stainless tanks are also expensive (I bet) and would require engineering (I know). Insulated poly tanks look like crap (IMHO), and again, if tall and narrow will require engineering (we have some earthquake shaking in my neck of the wood-less woods.) And if fat and short they don't fit in my space. Note, I will be doing tours and care what the tank room looks like. IBC totes don't need engineering as they are fork-liftable (got tiny muscles to agree). Thinking of putting a pretty insulation jacket around a couple of 550 G IBC stainless totes for my hot and cold water tanks. Just interested in other's ideas on this fascinating topic!
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