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Patio29Dadio

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Everything posted by Patio29Dadio

  1. Thanks InsuranceMan 2.0. I am waiting for a quote from my agent and will reach out to you for a competitive quote.
  2. Sounds like a great idea. Don't know how and why ABC would have a problem with it. It would seem that the paperwork trail would work. Frankly I don't even see where the problem is. You can contact a retailer, you just cannot sell to them directly nor can you give them anything of value other than a very small sample. Frankly2, isn't it the case with most distribution agreements that you the distiller are going to have to do the marketing... the distributor won't do it until and unless you are big. Something like this is good for the startup where there are local retailers that want the local product, but the DSP does not yet have a big enough presence or following to attract a good distributor deal.
  3. Good points InsuranceMan. I am going with my own LPS forklift. The landlord and I agreed that it would be good to have two in the building.
  4. Just order enough that it does not go stale and buy more from my friend Tyson at S.F. Herb. He moves a lot of product and so it is usually very fresh. He ships very fast. http://www.sfherb.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxrTAv_6J3gIVgX5-Ch0KjAyxEAAYASAAEgIDgvD_BwE
  5. I am considering a 3 cubic yard self-dumping de-watering hopper for stillage liquid-grain separation. That will hold the contents of two 300G stripping runs. My plan is to fill it and leave it to drain over-night. The next morning dump the grain waste into hoppers for a farmer to pick up. Then rinse and repeat. Anybody use a similar method? How do you think that would compare to a process using a hydrosieve instead? I assume that fines from grain-on stillage will clog this hydrosieve.
  6. How I am planning to cover this... 1250 L Letina forklift-able tank that is open with a variable fill lid. Clamp on small pneumatic agitator. Proof by weight. Pump to closed tank for resting. Test proof before bottling. Pump back to forklift-able tank, adjust for proof by weight if necessary, lift tank for gravity feed bottling or barrel-filling.
  7. Texas Gold - I emailed you. Let me know what is up. Thanks
  8. Largest boiler vendor in the state. They handle all sizes and scopes. I think you are probably correct. They are cherry-picking the high-paying jobs and over-bidding. Have four other bids underway. Wish me luck!
  9. Thanks Cris. I will be active once I get over the hump of opening the business for my nearly 4-year project. I understand the lift here... the work required to change minds when there is a lot of resistance from the big boys. I appreciate the work to date. You, Jim, Timo and others have absolutely moved the regs forward to being more reasonable with respect to what beer and wine can do. Hopefully we can keep plugging away making incremental progress.
  10. Take a look at the equipment and installation quotes and let me know your thoughts. Redacted Rite 150SG Boiler Equipment Quote.pdf Redacted Rite 150SG Boiler Installation Quote.pdf
  11. $150 per hour is the rate quoted for this CA job. Over 450 man hours of work at that rate. It just does not seem right from my perspective. I don't have an argument with the rate so much as the number of hours. That was my budget expectation... $35-$45k installation of the 1.2MM BTU Rite. My space is open and the run from the boiler to the tanks is straight. Below is a 3D rendering of the setup (water tanks have since changed, but not the general layout). It is about 50' from the steam boiler location to the furthest still tank boiler. The space between is for phase-2 growth equipment. The boiler is sized to cover phase-1 and phase-2. I envisioned a straight run of 4" steam pipe over the rafter trusses (about 13' off the ground) with straight T connections down to each piece of equipment. Seemed a pretty easy install without a lot of fitting required. However, seismic requirements are such that this is more complicated and it might make more sense to run the steam pipe header along the wall under the rafters and over the planned copper water lines. I am getting advise on all that. I have four other steam boiler vendors working on quotes with a request to help find some economy.
  12. Got four additional competitive big requests going. I will see if this is an abnormality or a common malady! A total of $131K for an installed 35 HP steam boiler is about twice what I expected. One of the vendors offers and option on skids that should save all the worry about incorrect setup, etc. They also say they will do the plan and coordinate with other contractors to help the client save on installation. Now I just hope that their boiler hardware isn't significantly more expensive.
  13. Yeah. I think that is the deal here. A bit of gouging because business is good. $45k for all the boiler parts (condensate return, burner, water softener, etc.) less the piping and stack. $86k for the installation. They did not break down the quote well enough, but it looks like about $16k for materials and the rest is labor. They are C4 certified and bill at $150 per hour. $70k @ 150 per hour = 466 man hours. The site is open and clear with straight 20' stack to the roof and the steam pipe run is straight overhead about 60' to the last piece of equipment on the run. Electrical and gas stubs already installed. I was expecting to be shocked with an installation bid equal to the boiler cost... not double!
  14. So, I just got my quote for the steam boiler installation. The boiler is a 1.4M BTUh Rite low pressure system and the quote for all the hardware was about $45k. The installation quote came in at $85k. It is not a complicated installation. Anyone out there have a comment on this? I think the boiler company is smoking rope. They are reputable, but really?
  15. I traveled to their location and met the owners and toured the facility. I liked the story... American manufacturing/fabrication... and pricing. My opinion was that other options were over-priced. But I learned of the problems before I pulled the trigger on a purchase, and thankfully am now with an equipment vendor I can trust. It is sad where they have ended up. But I see a lesson for everyone. For a business to be successful it needs a whole bunch of things to go right. The slide downhill can be steep and slippery, and thus it is good advice to keep everything focused on the slow and steady uphill climb. And the most important component to that climb is to take good care of your customers and your employees (just another type of customer). It seems to me that Corson might have weathered their early design and manufacturing problems (likely caused by too aggressive growth) if they had done this. However, their brand reputation has really suffered and may never recover.
  16. Thanks for the assist here. Did not think to read the OSHA regs. Now I am educated and my forklift reps are looking for LPS, EE and EX-rated lifts.
  17. Thanks. I will look into that, although I don't think the electric forklifts are explosion proof, and so I don't understand how that can be a reg requirement. Frankly, I would be more concerned with a big electric charge around the stills than I would an "internal" combustion engine... but I need to check it out from a reg perspective. Is your hard tire, or air-filled tires?
  18. So, I am stuck in analysis paralysis for selecting a pneumatic or cushion tire forklift. I think I am going with a newer model propane 5000 lb fork (we have lots of air circulation and I think that I don't want to deal with batteries and the charger, etc.). Interested in opinions on THAT choice I am making... propane over battery. Another tenant in my building wants to partner with us as he needs a fork infrequently and would rather not have one taking up space in his unit when he does not use it. We have 8k sq ft in the building and the barrel room is long and narrow (17' x 75'). We have some other semi-tight spaces in the main tank/production room. I am thinking that we will need another type of small lift for this barrel room given the lack of clearance (maybe a pallet jack will work to pull out the racks to be accessed by the forklift straight on)... so it might not play into the forklift selection in any case. The building is 48" above grade with a common loading dock on the side of the building with a forklift corridor. We have a 10% grade asphalt ramp in the back with only room for bobtail trucks. The back yard space will be used for moving our waste products out to be picked up by ranchers for feed and for waste removal. The flat space at the bottom of the ramp is hard-packed road-base gravel. It is also likely that periodically we will need to drive around the side of the building on this gravel "driveway" to load and unload tractor trailers that cannot reach the back yard, and cannot connect to the common loading dock (it is a bit tight... especially if and when we have customers parked in the lot). The trade-off is the larger size (10" longer plus 12% greater turning radius) of the pneumatic tire forklift vs the cushion tire forklift... and the mitigation of concern about the less frequent need to drive in gravel and also the use of the 10% grade ramp being problematic for a cushion (solid) tire forklift. Someone told me that a cushion tire will put ruts in asphalt over time, so that also has me concerned going up and down the ramp. Any thoughts and advice from those of you with distillery forklift operation and selection experience would be welcome!
  19. Any problem with variable water pressure, or changes to water temp going to your dephlegmator? Oops... never mind... I re-read and you say it happens without water to your pre-condenser. Sounds like a question for Paul Hall... guessing it is in your Baine Marie heating... maybe too much water?
  20. Botanicals in the basket will extract differently at different proof of alcohol vapor. You are going to proof down the GNS in the still before distillation, so with less rectification you are bringing more water vapor to the gin basket. That would result in a different botanical extraction than if you had more rectification and thus less water and higher proof alcohol vapor.
  21. Spent a good deal of time looking into this and changed my direction from Baine Marie to NG-fired low pressure steam. However, it added about $65k to my budget for a 36HP 1.4M BTU/hr low pressure steam boiler installed in my near-communist-controlled state. If you are thinking of Baine Marie because you don't have access to NG or propane, or you want to keep your capital outlays low, I would suggest you look into the alternative of electric-powered steam. The Sussex EX steam boiler looks like a good option to me. The largest of these is 18.2 HP which translates into about 600K BTU/h I think. The cost of the boiler alone is about $16-17k. You will also need about $7 in extras including the condensate return and the blow-down separator. The neato thing about these Sussex EX boilers is that they are a lower amp draw than others I considered. 480V/3PH/60HZ SUPPLY VOLTAGE, 217 AMPS. 240V/3PH/60HZ, 434 AMPS. The 11 HP version is 480V/3PH/60HZ SUPPLY VOLTAGE, 130 AMPS. 240V/3PH/60HZ, 260 AMPS and looks to be close to 400K BTU/h. I think this smaller unit should power a 150G still to get up to temp faster than the Baine Marie. It is probably $20k or so all in not including the cost of installation. Consider the cost of the Baine Marie components, the electrical installation costs and the boiler installation costs... do a spreadsheet. Gas steam is certainly going to be more affordable long-term for most... assuming you have gas.
  22. Awesome post. Thanks. One follow up point/question. While I certainly get the significance of this proof variance in accuracy, your example above assumes an absolute difference. In other words, you show an absolute increase in proof for the higher-accuracy density meters. I think, unless I am missing something here, the actual result would be plus-or-minus accuracy that, over a larger sampling set, would potentially result in less average variance. In addition, the IRS-approved hydrometer and thermometer have accuracy variance. For example, +- .2 proof for the hydrometer, and +-.75 C for the thermometer. So we would need to calculate the variance for both for a valid comparison... and also include the variance for all the variables of human error and other unknown influences. If it were me as the king of the TTB, I would approve more of these less-expensive meters and just require that they are certified every year along with an annual certified lab test of each proofed product.
  23. I joined CADG and would like to see the CA law changed to at least 2 oz., but preferably 3. 3 oz is two regular cocktails. Yes some people should not drive after two cocktails, but in general being able to serve two cocktails allows for a REAL tasting room experience without the hassle of dealing with people that stay too long and get inebriated... but while also helping to motivate customers to buy a bottle or three. At our place I anticipate some unhappy customers being told they cannot have a second cocktail (not quite open yet). They leave grumpy about the experience and it can negatively impact their opinion of the brand. Tasting rooms are really hospitality services and unreasonable rules damage the service capability. Starting a regular restaurant is a HUGE deal. It is can be a very big capital investment, and adds tremendous operating complexity to a business that is supposed to be manufacturing primarily. Selling a couple of full-sized cocktails to showcase our spirit, to provide a quality tasting room experience... it seems quite reasonable to me and seems unreasonable to limit the pour to 1.5 oz per person per day. This is about building a brand making spirits... the restaurant option might work for some as a revenue generator, but it detracts from the manufacturing focus IMO. Also, the CA craft industry needs to increase the 3-bottle sales limit to 6-bottles, or eliminate it completely. See Washington. In general there does not seem to be a rational argument for why CA craft spirits don't get the same tasting room capabilities as do beer and wine.
  24. The regs say: It is fantastic to me that TTB would require this level of accuracy in a density meter while accepting manual measures that rely on human eyesight. For example, I know that I can take proof measurements using my certified and calibrated hydrometer and thermometer and be no more materially accurate than I would be using the SNAP-50. In terms of which Anton Parr density meters comply, there is a DMA 501 small bench-top device for around $8k but "only" has accuracy of Density: 0.001 g/cm³ & Temperature: 0.3 °C. The DMA-1001 is around $13k and has accuracy of Density: 0.0001 g/cm³ & Temperature: 0.05 °C. The "lowest" accuracy that the TTB will accept is the $25K+ DMA™ 4500 M: 0.00001 g/cm3 & Temperature at 0.01 °C. Again, that is crazy levels of accuracy required given the alternative of manual proofing and the potential for eyesight variance. I get the worry about tax revenue, but TTB should get real about this. I am starting to think that these density meter companies have some good lobbying.
  25. Good recommendations. Unfortunately the roof of the building cannot be used for installing a cooling tower. The other issue I think is that chilled water cannot be used for mash water unless the chiller is configured for potable water. At least that is what I have been told. And my chiller is not and I understand that this is an expensive modification. I know of one distillery that just uses straight city water for their cooling (it comes out cold)... they save it in an insulated hot water tank and use it for cleaning and mash water. But where I am located we have many days during the summer in the high 90s and 100s and the tap water will get to high 60s and even low 70s... thus the need to chill the condenser and mash crash cool water. I think what I came up with will work... having a 3-tank system with an insulated cooling tank, a non-insulated steel hot water receiving tank and a non-insulated water staging tank. Pump the water from the staging tank to the chill tank before going home for the night and start the chiller loop. In the morning drain the previous hot water that had been allowed to cool overnight into the staging tank. Then run production where I empty the chilled water tank and fill the hot water tank again. And repeat.
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