Foreshot

It was more the "puddle of mud" comment that got me. I guess you could interpret deep tails as that. Agreed. If he's going to trash someone he could at least offer something to help them improve. Simply saying "you suck" isn't especially helpful.

How would you interpret these reviews. What are the issues? He's thinking it's late cuts into tails. I'm not sure that's it or there are other issues. I know it's kinda hard without tasting the spirits themselves. As an FYI, neither are my products. "puddle water" and "heavily earthy notes" https://malt-review.com/2019/02/11/blaum-bros-straight-bourbon-whiskey/ https://malt-review.com/2018/12/15/chicago-distilling-company-blind-tiger-bourbon/

Or is it more like this: http://adiforums.com/topic/9481-sediment-in-finished-bottles/?tab=comments#comment-56524

See if you can have him send a picture. It will help with understanding the issue. Is it spots or is it more like this:

Sorry not trying to beat him up, just making sure he understand that the problem he's trying to solve is an edge case, not something that is common. UAHJoe I'll PM my reply.

It's may be chill haze due to the fats in the walnuts. https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Chill_Filtering How to tell: If you warm it up and it goes away then it's the fats hazing over. Like SickFloss said, either up your ABV or chill filter. Chill filtering may effect the flavor some. Not a fun decision.

So part 2 of that is that most distilleries, if they ferment on the grain distill on the grain. They wouldn't lauter off at that point. They either go grain off after mashing or go through the entire distilling process grain on.

There isn't any alcohol in the grains before fermentation. Do you mean liquid separation? Are you developing a device to dewater grains?

We have a similar climate around here. If you're storing in a concrete floor warehouse you're likely having issues with low humidity. I know at least one local place that had to install humidifiers to bring it up. I believe I remember reading that humidity should be 60%+ for optimal storage. Is your proof going up or down? Proof going up is a good indicator that you're too dry.

So you're asking one of the hardest question in business. What is it worth? There aren't going to be any simple answers. It sounds like the business isn't that successful. If that's true then I would go in with more of a equipment replacement cost estimate (FFE - Furniture, Fixtures, and Equipment). The IP (name, licenses, etc) aren't worth much of anything as they are a small business. You could ask for an asset sale (FFE only) and ignore the rest. It's fairly common with small businesses. Revenue, not sales. HUGE difference. If the person has lost money then the true value of the business is basically 0. A lot of people selling say "look at the potential". That potential, in all honesty, is what you're going to be putting into it. So they are getting you to pay for the work YOU are going to be doing. Aside from the cost of the business, do you understand if it's the right business for you? If the business isn't that successful do you understand why? If so do you have the skillset(s) to fix it? or the money to hire person/people with the right skillset(s)? Starting from scratch sucks, but it beats buying a bad company and riding it down. Do you think if you started a new company from scratch would you be in a better position in 3-5 years? The best person to speak to is a local accountant or lawyer that is well versed in small business sales or a sales broker. There's way too many items that would affect the value of the business. Think about it this way: The MORE work/money YOU are going to have to put into it the LESS money it's worth. The LESS work/money YOU are going to have to put into it the MORE money it's worth.

Another thing I have read a lot from here is that Gin's don't scale up well. You'll need to adjust botanical levels when you change stills. A lab still might be good for developing the taste profile but it won't give you a precise recipe.

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/w342017 Huh. My partner is obsessed with doing a tomato brandy. I think it could be interesting based on that. His test batches so far have been interesting. Side note - there's a bunch of reference papers at the bottom of the page.

Safety is primary, know what each knob does before you turn it on. Contact the manufacturer, explain your situation, see if you can get manual/diagrams/other documentation/training. Write your turn on/off process before your first run. If you don't know what something does it could be the thing that causes the still to go boom. And also do what County Seat said. AH stills are common enough that you should be able to find someone not to far away to help show you the ropes.

Gentlemen, let's not go too far off on a tangent on the quality of wine. This the most interesting thread we've had on fermentation and flavor development I think ever and I would not want to have it get too far off that subject. So to get back to that... That ^^^^^ (both of them) I am in agreement with both sentiments. It's the law of unintended consequences that when we aim for one thing in such a complex process as fermentation we will upset something or many something elses (grant me some poetic license here, I'm on a roll). But we still need to experiment and see what happens. It just has to be with an open mind that honestly critiques the results. To me the worst thing that could happen is that we end up with a process like most fast aging process that hit one aspect of an aged spirit and fails on so many others - As ThomasD said, it creates noise, not a symphony. SCD said it more scientifically. I want to make some really esoteric spirits. But I don't want to make a gimmick. I want to make some that has all the right aspects in the right quantities that make a spirit great. Most whiskeys on the market now are really good. But it's the same process without much innovation. Our great-grand parents could, and did, make great spirits too in basically the same way. I want to do something new.

I don't know much about Koji. Seems like interesting stuff though.

It seems like the same process will yield both compounds through inverse reactions - Condensation (removal of water) in esters and Hydrolysis (addition of water) in Carotenoids, both involving acids or enzymes. Also long distillation times seem to raise both ester and damascenone counts. I believe that part of the premise of stillage - be it fresh, seasoned dunder or muck. It helps build precursors to other more interesting compounds. SCD/BA - is that how you're interpreting it? As for higher alcohol output - do you mean volume or fusel alcohols? I think you mean volume - I can't answer that as I'm not sure. Interesting question - you mean like a starter or something else?

Chart of relative polarity: https://www.aceorganicchem.com/Elite/organic-chem-15-organic-solvents-likes-dissolve-likes/ Water > Carboxylic > Ethanol.

Yes-ish. You talk about getting the right ones in abundance. I agree with this. If you have an abundance of good ones it helps the equilibrium go the way you want. In distilling we set the conditions for outcome we want. We can't dictate the outcome. Your ideas align with that philosophy. Yes. All ferments have a wide variety of fusel oils and fusel alcohols, it's just a matter of how much. Most commercial distillers I know hit ~1.000 and run it. It makes a clean taste not much by way of character. I find the ferments that I abuse more have more fusels and end up being more interesting - mostly good but sometimes bad. This is something we need to research more. I believe, though I don't have evidence, that the removal of the water molecule reduces the boiling point. I think that's why most esters come over in the early heads to early hearts. Side note, some interesting things I found while researching this post: https://www.solubilityofthings.com/water/alcohols <- simpler alcohols are miscible, but higher alcohols are less so to the point they aren't really at all. This could help explain what happens when you phase separate low wines. It's not just fusel oils, but fusel alcohols too. https://sites.duke.edu/apep/module-1-gender-matters/content/content-what-is-alcohol/ <- chart showing # per 100g of Butanol and higher alcohols, including Amyl (pentanol). Anything above this will float and be able to be removed by phase separation. https://socratic.org/questions/how-do-covalent-bonds-dissolve-in-water <- Alcohol floats on water until given time to diffuse.

So from the reading I've done there are my thoughts on this: They can and do, but the equilibrium of the mixture is based on the volume and polarity of alcohols and carboxylic acids involved. The more polar molecules will reform esters more often. So what esters go in aren't necessarily the ones that come out. They are constantly being destroyed and reformed. The long term relative equilibrium would favor esters that form from the more polar molecules with fewer of the ones that are less polar. You can see this in action by noticing the drift in aroma and flavors in spirits even though they are in a not reactive environment like glass or stainless steel. It's also relative to the ABV of the spirit. Lower ABVs are going to destroy more esters with less reforming. Higher ABVs destroy fewer esters (less water for hydrolysis) and favors more ester formation. And the thing you mention a lot is the acidity of the mixture, and the more Fisher catalyzed esterification will happen. A little odd video of this is here - pay attention to 6:50 and 9:40, it applies to us: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVL24HAesnc

Seriously - my sanitation protocol is non-existent anymore. I can't remember the last time I really used starsan. I would say bacterial contributions are mostly beneficial to flavors though negative for yield. Milk the Funk has an AMAZING wiki. Properly annotated, written by PhDs, tons of research and explanation. http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Table_of_Contents http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Alternative_Bacteria_Sources To his point see this chart - scroll down to esters: http://masterclass.boxwhisky.se/en/the-middle-cut This is the part that sucks. What I get right off the still are the absolute best flavors. Even after a few days the flavor changes and settles down. That's another thing that people don't necessarily understand - time in a barrel or bottle isn't static for esters or other chemical compounds.Barreling isn't just for oaking. There's a lot of things that happen in a barrel that we don't talk about. Chemical reactions still happen, only slower. Water can easily reverse esterifacation. And now people are experimenting with lower ABV barrel entry so it's a recipe for removing esters. I don't disagree with the lower entry ABV, but understand why you're doing it what will happen due to it matters. I think this is the hardest part for new craft people. No blending stocks. Cash is king and everything gets bottled and sold. The model of DOK and blending stocks requires time and planning which not a lot of craft people can do. It is the right model, just not super practical. People need to laydown some breather barrels for blending and that's not something they may be able to afford.

When you're looking at natural biological activity in yeast/bacteria there's a ton of secondary process that can effect the outcome based on conditions. I think there's a lot of people that believe they can laser focus on achieving an outcome, over production of a specific by product like fatty acids, without understanding the conditions that it requires. How you ferment, what you ferment, the conditions of the ferment (open/closed, tall/short vessel, etc) will effect each strain of yeast/bacteria differently. So what works in an open short wooden fermenter in the summer in Jamaica might not work the same as in Chicago in winter in a closed SS tall tank. I agree it's a good starting point to use what they use as a starting point - but to SCD's point - it's probably best to experiment to see what work for you. You can also manipulate yeast to produce acetic, lactic, propionic, and other acids, but in lower quantities. It's fully good to use the try it and see method to get started, but it doesn't help with repeatability. You really need to account for as many factors as you can to understand which conditions are best for the outcome you want. Timing of the additions, temps, pH, ferment size, ambient temp/time of year, anything. The Birectifier is something that can help with this to check for non-quantitative olfactory effects. I think mixed culture fermentations is some of the best stuff going on today in the industry. It's taking something that happened in the old days and recreating it after we took it out of the process for sanitary/efficiency reasons. I'm happy to see people working on it!

That's what happened at Wigle. It caused their still to explode.

As a rough estimate of what you can get for your distillery: - Cash Flow: 3-5x times earnings adding your salary back in. 3x if you don't have high free cash flow to costs, 5x if you have very high free cash flow to costs. It is very hard to go above 5x unless you are really profitable and growing well. If you are the main person making everything and you don't have a good backup then take 1-2x back. - The cost of your total FFE at discount sale price - The cost of your realty if you own the building. If you own the building you're probably looking at the the cost of realty + the greater of Cash Flow or FFE. The more someone has to do to keep the business running then the less you'll get for it. If someone can own the business with very little activity required then the more you'll get for it. And the smaller you are the harder it is to sell the business vs sell the equipment. I would look at your goals in life to evaluate the sell vs continue question. If you can hire or rely on someone to run the business with you calling the shots I think you can do it. If you can't trust someone to run the business without you being involved in everything then it might be better to sell. If you want to continue on and you don't have a good #2, find one. It's not easy but hopefully you will eventually find someone with the passion and ability to do it. If you're relatively close to retirement maybe bring someone in to eventually take over the business a little at time - say over 5-10 years. Part of their salary can be a small incremental increases in ownership (1-2%) in lieu of some salary then a purchase of the most/rest of the business at the end of the term. If a person owns 20% of a business that is healthy it shouldn't be too hard to finance the rest. There's tons of ways to do it. Those are just a few ideas. Good luck!

I ran a batch of single malt a while ago. It's low wines around 35% abv. I re-discovered it a few days ago. I am going to get the jellyfish analyzed. Once I get the results I'll post up. We've talked about what it might be - fatty acids, esters, saponification. Any other ideas? Should we start a betting pool?

Like Kelbor says dump the Campden tablets. The sulfur is causing the off flavors. It's also harmful to your yeast. Sanitation isn't as important in the distilling world as you're running it before an infection can cause much trouble. If you keep stuff clean that's all that is needed. This is the hardest point that ex-brewers/vintners have trouble wrapping their heads around. If you're only worried about chlorine/chloramine read this: https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Water_Conditioning