Foreshot

Yeah it's everyone. It sucks. We had our designer make the labels specific to the bottles we liked and now they look like crap on the other ones. We use Primal - Tennessee, Liberty, Las Vegas & 375 flasks. We're also super small (~600 sqft) so we can't even but in large quantities even if we wanted. FYI I'm here whining because my wife is tired of hearing about it... I figure I can commiserate with you all.

Cause seriously, I'm about to start making bottles myself. We're using really stupid looking bottles right now because all the ones we normally get are sold out for MONTHS. These new bottles are wider than our normal ones and our label is somewhat skinny to start with so now it looks like the bottle is wearing a G string.

Estimated: low 30s I did not use volumetric flasks. I used graduated cylinders for measuring. I do have volumetric flasks. Temps were not the same. I did not record the first temp but I did for the second. I recorded 95.8p @ 76.5f - Hoochware says true proof of 88.8p Base spirit: 51kg @ 86.4p, then added 22.95kg of 50/50 by weight simple syrup. One big note: So I didn't mix the spirit before I removed the sample. It looks like all the sugar stratified and there was more alcohol at the top based on tasting. I will redo my proofing later.

Filled a flask with 500ml of spirit Distilled to over 100c Added RO water until it is back to 500ml Measure Proof Yes? Cause if so then I magically made nearly double the alcohol than what I put in.

Dave - Enjoy your retirement! I appreciated all of your help with our distillery & getting it set up. Have fun!

That's a new one. Just to double check - you're not adding anything post distillation? It seems like you're doing all the right things. At 40% ABV nothing biological should be growing. It must be a chemical reaction. Can you bottle a bottle without using the pump/bottle filler/air sparger? Give it some time to see if this stuff shows up. Maybe it's some contamination coming from a pump or hose? Doing this would eliminate some possibilities. Is the filter you're using reusable or one time? Maybe buy a different manufacturer?

Post up some photos. Tell us more about your process - is it a distilled gin or compound? Do you add sugar or anything post distillation? Proof? Do you filter pre-bottling? If so how tight of a filter? Do you rinse or wash your bottles? How are they filled? Is it a cloudy debris or more sandy/grit like?

For a DSS what kind of SOC can I put on it? I have a cinnamon whiskey that falls below 30% ABV so I can't directly call it that. Right now we're looking at making it a DSS. If we do what kind of SOC will I need or what can I say? I can say "Made with Bourbon Whiskey"? Or is there some other magic thing the TTB would want to see? From a marketing perspective if I don't put bourbon on the label I feel it will effect sales negatively.

I mean purging the headspace in the neck. Instead of just having atmospheric air you purging it with some other gas.

To bring this up again: For people that are getting condensation: What's the ABV you've bottled at that experienced it? We bottle between 20% and 45% and get it. What bottles are you using? For people that do purge with nitrogen/argon/CO2 or something else? Are you experiencing it? Is there anyone out there that ISN'T experiencing it? If so what are you doing to prevent it if anything? What spirits are you bottling? What bottles are you using? What ABV are you bottling? Where are you? Could it be climate/humidity related? Are you purging the bottle?

As far as I know it's ok to use. It's been used in the rum world for a long time and I've never heard anything bad about it.

The TTB requires COLA approval for interstate (state-to-state) commerce. Intrastate (sales not crossing a state line) has a lower requirement - but it still has to have FOLA approval and a COLA waiver signed. The difficulty is your state. In PA we are required to have COLA approval regardless of inter/intrastate commerce*. You will need to contact a your state control board or local attorney to figure out if you are required to by your state or not. *There is massive loophole for this in PA. You can sell anything in any size as a Cocktail To Go as long as you meet those requirements.

You can try putting your botanicals in something like this: https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/brewingfilters.php#fermentationbucketkit They will custom make something for you. If you have a small manway then that would be helpful. Or you could strain it afterwards through something like this: https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/filtersstainlessbucket.php You could probably get 1000 micron size. The rest of the solids would easily be accepted into the sewage system. As long as you don't have a really large still these should get you by for a while.

So to explain this a little (for everyone aside from SCD) - citric acid is a carboxylic acid where sulfuric isn't. Citric acid will take part in esterification reactions, sulfuric won't. So when you added Citric acid you changed what esters were being formed. If you used sulfuric it would have enhanced what esters were previously being made. You wouldn't change the flavor as much as enhance it. The flavor might change though as the catalyst will enhance all esterification reactions, not just the "good" ones.

That's a good find. Oxidation of ethyl alcohol: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Organic_Chemistry/Supplemental_Modules_(Organic_Chemistry)/Alcohols/Reactivity_of_Alcohols/The_Oxidation_of_Alcohols Oxidation of aldehydes: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Organic_Chemistry/Map%3A_Organic_Chemistry_(Smith)/Chapter_20%3A_Introduction_to_Carbonyl_Chemistry_Organometallic_Reagents_Oxidation_and_Reduction/20.08_Oxidation_of_Aldehydes Another thing I saw in those pages is that higher alcohols oxidize to ketones - some of which have interesting aromatics/flavors.

The lower the ABV the more esters you're going to lose. Keep the ABV as high as possible for as long as possible. Water breaks esters apart. Acidity probably helps reform the esters. https://www.jove.com/science-education/11213/hydrolysis-of-an-ester You also can have transesterification - it's where higher polarity molecules replace the acid side of the equation and it becomes a different ester. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transesterification

TTB Beverage Alcohol manual: https://www.ttb.gov/distilled-spirits/beverage-alcohol-manual List of forms that anyone can access for review, include tutorials: https://www.ttb.gov/forms The 4 forms required every month (Direct Access, must be logged in): Processing (Denaturing) Operations - https://pay.gov/public/form/start/1737334 Processing Operations - https://pay.gov/public/form/start/1736916 Production Operations - https://pay.gov/public/form/start/1737199 Storage Operations - https://pay.gov/public/form/start/2655 The Excise tax form - Filing frequency varies based on distillery size: Excise Tax Return - https://pay.gov/public/form/start/2659 Filing due dates: https://www.ttb.gov/tax-audit/excise-tax-and-export-due-dates The page is designed poorly but you will find the links in there. TTB Standards of Identity (AKA legal definitions of each spirit) The act as written: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-5/subpart-I Table form (PDF): https://www.ttb.gov/images/pdfs/spirits_bam/chapter4.pdf TTB Proofing series (how to proof spirits properly) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlWWcVGrLSp4geGLNahnHSkQ2b3YsVqhz Can an Admin make this a sticky? Please add anything you might find useful especially for newbies.

Or someone could post up the answer 10 seconds after I ask the question... ha! Thanks as always SCD.

To me that's the key. We have to walk before we run. Understanding esters is a start, then we move on to other components. We tend to place the emphasis on the acid side without addressing how to create higher alcohols. The acid side to me is almost easy. The right bacteria, the right conditions and you have the acid side. I've never seen anything on the alcohol side other than a long & high temp fermentation. How are higher alcohols produced? How do we create conditions to encourage their production? Can we find a way to select for specific ones? Other than generalizations I've not see anything. For rum I don't think terpenes play a large part, but brandies I would believe they and esters play huge roles. And for a lot of our botanical spirits, like gin, that's the main flavor/aromatic base. I don't see anything on here that gets into the role they play. Stephen has started exploring the subject but that's all I've ever seen on it outside of academic research. Can we create/destroy them in the fermenting/distilling/aging processes? No idea.

Thanks - that helps a lot. Yes - that's why I directly started this post. And you did an awesome job of explaining it. There's also a learning curve to part of it. Not much about the Cousins Process was widely documented until they started it. @bostonapothecary has done a massive amount to help rediscover some of the old methods, including the Cousin's Process. The language issues where every one has their own definition of lees, low/high wines, etc, doesn't help us as an industry either. Totally agree here but that could possibly effect being able to call it Rum per TTB SOI. From a marketing perspective having a rum that you can't call rum isn't going to go well.

As an off shoot of this post: I am putting this out there as A ) I don't know the answer B ) It's a good discussion to have. It seems we're collecting more chemistry minded folk that could hopefully explain this better to folks like me that aren't chemists* so we understand it better. @Silk City Distillers@Atarijedi In relation to the Cousins Process: Part of this is to introduce a strong base (most use Lye, sodium hydroxide) to create a salt to precipitate out, collect the salts, then reintroduce the excess salts to the retort/thumper with an acid (namely Sulfuric acid), to create an excess of available ester precursors, namely on the carboxylic acid side of the equation. So the thing here is (from the Wiki article): Saponification reactions are ... almost totally irreversible. Discussion: 1) So what we've discussed before here (sans the "irreversible" part) now seems unlikely but also what has been proven to work? 2) Is Sulfuric acid strong enough to break the bonds of the saponified fatty acids? Or is the sulfuric acid just acting as a catalyst to other reactive compounds? 3) Or does Saponification only affect longer chain carboxylic acids? (per Wiki: Soaps are salts of fatty acids and fatty acids are monomers of lipids that have long (at least 10) carbon chains ) 4) Per #3, then only longer chain carboxylic acids are saponified, leaving them unusable for reactions, but leaving the shorter ones for reactions? Then this process will create conditions that create esters that are more likely to have esters with 9 or less carbon chains? I would suspect that would show if someone were to analyze the output of a normal run and a Cousins Process run, one would see higher levels of esters with less than 10 carbon molecules and similar levels at 10 or above. Background Cousins Process: https://www.bostonapothecary.com/confidential-instruction-for-making-high-ether-rum-by-h-h-cousins-1906/ Saponification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponification Esterification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ester Salt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) *I only play one on the internet.

I've never toasted a whole stave before, but isn't that a little too hot/long? If you've done it before what kind of flavor profile did you get off it? Also - do you need to get formula approval or any labeling requirements if you do this? I want to add some french oak cubes in with a barrel, I wasn't sure how to handle it.

I made an "extractor". I put cams on it so it hooks up quickly. It's ~4' long so we can put it in a side or top bung barrel. We use a flowjet to power it. It's not super fast but gets most of everything out. At that point we flip the barrel and dump whatever is left. It's usually less than a cup. Put a filter in between the extractor and pump or else you'll destroy the pump when a piece of char gets in it. And yes I know that from experience. 👎

More geekery: The micro/nano particles of plant remnants in sugar are colloids. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloid Colloids are groups of molecules bound together vs individual molecules. Think of it this way: A small amount of sugar in water will dissolve completely in water. Those remnant particles from the sugar that are not dissolved are colloids. They are extremely small particles: 1 micron or less. Due to their light weight they can be suspended in the liquid for a time. There are multiple forces that dictate how long the colloidal materials are able to be suspended. The wiki article is kinda crazy with the science. Colloids are like dust, on their own you don't really see them. Once they come together (aggregate) then you can. Video of large particles flocculating in space:

Some more research: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236879657_A_review_on_acid_beverage_floc Interesting side note here: https://internationalsugarjournal.com/acid-beverage-floc-abf/ I can only read the abstract but the following nugget is interesting: unsworks.unsw.edu.au/fapi/datastream/unsworks:34859/SOURCE01 Page 17 (PDF page 34) gives a long discussion on what makes up ABF. There's references to particularities in alcoholic beverages.