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starcat last won the day on June 27

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  1. MG Thermal you are always good for practical matters. There are a lot of ways to optimize chiller loads and I am with you on not wanting the return water temp above a certain critical threshold. This is for sure necessary. The thing that boggles my mind about everyone attempting to save dollars on first cost, is the idea of a cooling media supply that drifts higher during the run which in my view is fully unacceptable. If you want a rock solid process your condenser cooling fluid needs to be at a " constant." It does involve, not doing things on the ultra cheap to make this happen but you do not have to continually adjust your prcess due to a lack of the correct temperature media. This will take away instantly the chasing of certain variables that lead to inconsistency. It will allow you to focus on your process, instead of chase the lack or necessary cooling BTUs. Batch cooling really only is a time game. It does not give you more of the cooling BTUs in real terms that you may be short on. Star
  2. " Consumer Demand." This meme should go out of use, but of course we are in a reality where about only 4-7% of people standing are " Producers." That is people who put more energy out into the system than they take. Consumer is a real bad word in my view. Star Star4
  3. Aside from the intel that can be found on this forum, one of the absolute best things you can do is to visit and tour in detail as many working operations as possible. IN doing this you will gain very valuable insights as to what you want and do not want to do. What works and what does not, and so forth. The next thing is to have at least one Crackerjack Mechanic involved to oversee the entire build out if possible unless you yourself have this skill set. Someone with Heavy Commercial to Industrial Level, Electrical and Mechanical Service and Commisioning experience. What I have noted in the craft brewing industry is people come in without any real mechanical skills or understanding and always attempt to reinvent the wheel. So inculde visits, questions, and note taking into your timeline. Try to give yourself time to fully integrate each subsection of technical matters and be sure you understand it. This will affect your system layout and all the parts, equipment, and services you are going to buy.The informational resources available now are better than ever.
  4. You want to port Glycol into the bottom rather than the top cooling port. Bottom in, Top out. IN your case I might install some valves on the glycol ports, so you can drain " most " of the glycol back and put it back in your chiller well. A small amount left in the jacket will not hurt anything. If the jacket is full you can get destructive hydrostatic expansion if things are heated up. The ideal situation is not to be moving things around all the time and to have jacketed vessels as permanent fixtures. Any time you are porting to and disconnecting from your glycol loop there will always be small losses. It is possible to use quick connect fittings. Its always a good idea to have spare glycol on hand for emergencies related to things that were not planned. Some small submersible utility pumps are useful to have around when dealing with lots of glycol issues. Little Giant makes a decent one. Star
  5. The Architect Spec'd this model Q8, so this is what we ended up with: http://www.qelsafety.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/86350-001-000-RA-Q8-Operation-Manual-1.pdf There are 3 SPDT relays on board that can be configured to stop process and so forth.
  6. How about not using METRIC terms if you are in the USA.
  7. Remote startup can be considered a " Dangerous " affair as many things can go wrong if you do not have the exact safety interlocks necessary for ALL contingencies that will create an unsafe condition, double quick. There are operational scenarios that can happen which have not been experienced, and as thus not planned for which can and will surprise the operator of said system. Once thing you can do it keep your boiler on warm standby at 170F with the necessary Aquastat control integrated into the control system, or leave it fully spooled up. Automation can be quite a dangerous affair and has gotten a lot of people killed in the industrial world. The latest notable incidents being the 2 Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft that have crashed due to bad Engineering and even worse Oversight, and with so called people in high places lying about the reality of what has taken place.
  8. As an aside, Ion Exchange Softened water makes really BAD Coffee, yet every expresso machine make will tell you they want their unit on " Soft Water."
  9. The " Con " of any software is people have gotten the idea that software is the answer to everything. As thus they have become fascinated and mesmerized by the artifice of it all. People who have never done a correct inventory for example need to learn how to create a fully organized stock room with a paper inventory form that runs in the exact order of the layout, and then master the process by doing it every day. We are living in an age where critical thinking is being lost. This is dangerous. People are fiddling with gadgets too much.
  10. This is a typical F&T steam trap made by Spirax Sarco. You just install a ball valve on the bottom port of the casting so you can always clean it out regular.
  11. You need to use Float and Thermostatic Steam traps for this type of application. The one shown looks like an inverted bucket trap. I have seen and dealt with misapplied inverted bucket traps on systems where they could never work correctly and stay primed and respond. They have limited use application wise and will always be trouble on this kind of a system. Your steam traps need permanent blow down valves installed. I am assuming your servo which appears to be in the infeed line is sized correct for the flow rate. You need air eliminators on your Steam main, and I am assuming your vessel is fitted with a vacuum breaker. Did you say you are not using a return pump of any kind? That I have never seen. Typically shutter mounted exhaut fans are not used in boiler rooms. Instead the fan should bring air into the room with a high relief zone and is generally thermostat activated and in calculation with combustion air. Excellent info on PRVs from SH. Impressive, thanks. There is a new Steam Blog as listed on Pro Brewer from a guy who has a good knowledge base: https://brewingwithsteam.com/
  12. Any " Orwellian " style editing of the true past or otherwise attempting to supress this kind of information should be resisted Violently and Definitely. This is exactly the kind of thread that should be drug out into the clear light of day where everyone can see it, no matter what kind of negative emotional challenges it creates for any oversensitive " ego." Anything else is censorship of the facts which everyone has a right to know, no matter how unpleasant any happens to find them. Removing " anything " from public record is a very dangerous affair with attendent consequences of attempting to suppress free speech. When things happen to go this way, people simply have to man up. Full stop. The only true purpose of any censorship of any kind is to protect children from things that are grossly debased before they are old and mature enough to make an informed decision. We are seeing the exact opposite thing going on in this country and the world at large which should tell everyone involved that the people setting those agendas have thing backwards and its by design.
  13. I do not know of a case for differentiation of the equipment as you have described. We are living in an age where localities and all governments in fact have gotten out of hand, and are getting more so as time goes on. What I might suggest is to get your entire steam and condensate piping schematic drawn up and have a Steam System Engineer sign off on it, and possibly ask your local troublemakers if they will accept this before hand. The other thing is we are also in an age where expertise on these type of systems is disappearing except in larger industrial applications where it still has to be present. This unforunately makes this kind of install double dangerous. As an example, I am likely the only one in this town that has any working knowedge or experience with running Steam Boilers. NONE of the HVACR or Local Plumbing Mechanical outfits are learned and they avoid dealing with it. The ones that are hacking on hydronic systems are dangerous. Spirax Sarco may have some resources for you if you make contact with them. Everything is stacked against the small operator across the board. Not just in this trade. Also if you get on some of the online Engineering Forums, you may be able to find an old school Engineer who can help you. If you are anywhere near Utah, you can visit our operation if you are interested in particulars. There is a wide variance of safety margins out in the real world. I have visited a larger scale running Distillery that was an Engineering nightmare. We attempted to make this small one as safe as possible.
  14. It sounds like you want to put things together well, but your vision may be a bit rigid. Have you ever worked with Warrick Style controls? While you say you need a " panel " between your still and your main panel, all I needed were NEMA 7 junction boxes. https://www.gemssensors.com/level/warrick/conductivity-based-liquid-level-control/intrinsafe Our Experience. Within a certain perimeter distance to the Still, we needed NEMA-7 protocols. Beyond that zone we could go to NEMA-4 if its done carefully. The design Architect specified no open contact controls in this particular panel which is about 13 Ft. from the edge of the pot. This one is all SSR with EXP switches and just terminals inside.We put some other control panels fully outside the still room along with Deph control valves and the agiitator starter etc. Outside the room we exit with Explosion Proof Conduits and can then do anything. The fact that you are going electric heat complicates matters. I assume you mean SCR control on your elements. I would think this is a major complication compared to steam fired with line voltage " right at the still." I would do the SCR control in a cooled cabinet if possible. The suggestion again is out of the still room proper. Your setup sounds challenging, and expensive but not impossible. Things like RTDs technically are not even capable of becoming a hazard. I have a white paper to this fact. As stated it is a lot about what your local inspectors want and your best efforts and research combined. Our instllation required 100% outside air and matching CFM of exhaust, so there is constant air change in the still room. We have also added additional interlocks to stop the steam flow to the still in the event of a number of related support utilities failing. Examples are: The Exhaust Fan starts the Makeup air system and if it faults the MAU will go off line. If the MAU goes off line steam goes off line. Steam is interlocked with MAU Main Fan, Chiller Loop pump, Glycol Return Temp. An open contact on any of these systems will drop out steam and trigger an alarm strobe. There is also a required ethanol sensor in the room which if triggered will drop out steam and light the alarm strobe.
  15. The best control you can get on the Deph is having its own separate cooling fluid supply and proportional control is preferred. Said control is modulated by a sensor in the Deph tower head. While solenoid control can work and many use it, correctly designed proportional will be more stable and eliminate the sign wave hunting if sized correctly. If you are operating in the USA is it helpful to give units in degrees F, and avoid all Metrics as possible. I do not know any HVACR Mechanic born in the USA that should have any use for the Metric System. C represents to large of a degree of change. Americans do not think this way. There is another tendency that has been noted of inadequate chiller capacity in this type of arrangement which will work against you, as you will have to constantly alter your process trim to compensate for changes in cooling media temperature. The best way is to have full and adequate cooling that stays the same temp throughout the entire process or you will be chasing things in a backwards manner. As thus having an undersized chiller will lend towards process and product inconsistencies.
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