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Everything posted by Thatch

  1. That should work nicely! Cheers!
  2. Whole lot of folks already doing it. http://www.americansinglemaltwhiskey.org/ Not quite sure what the issue is since WHISKY DISTILLED FROM MALT MASH is a class of Whisky.
  3. American Single Malt Whiskey - This should be nothing more then a fanciful name Whiskey Distilled From Malt Mash - This type specifically calls for used barrels. We will be using Neutral barrels but I have no how long to count on them lasting.
  4. That's the direction we are headed. We're doing something along the lines of based on our consultants input. Distillery Name American Single Malt Whiskey Whiskey Distilled From Malt Mash
  5. Thatch

    architect dilemma.. your recs?

    maddog, Wow, you have your act together. One thing I didn't mention was in my initial meeting with the city I asked the building inspector what general contractors they felt comfortable with and those are the ones I got proposals from. The guy who your city feels comfortable with is the one I would choose. There is a lot of information on codes both on-line and on this forum that can short cut the consultants fee you are afraid of. This paper from Dalkita that I found online was helpful to the engineers and would be helpful to your architect who has not done this previously. http://www.americancraftspirits.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Safety-Code-Breaking-Barrels.pdf.
  6. Thatch

    architect dilemma.. your recs?

    We did a "none of the above" We contracted with a local good name general contractor that had a good engineering staff. They came up with all the right questions and were able to satisfy the fire marshal as well as the building inspector and the building code review inspector. Before you hire anyone you need to make sure that your difficult to deal with local government wants a distillery in their town. If they don't want you, they will always find a way to keep you out. I first went to the city, talked to the head of Community & Economic Development who took the idea to city council, then zoning and then planning to see if anyone had objections to a distillery. Getting the fire marshal involved early is quite important so the he can review the fire codes and look smart if the other folks ask his opinion on the dangers of a distillery. I actually called him and told him what we wanted to do so he would be prepared for any questions. I wanted his opinion on whether or not he thought a distillery in our proposed location would be okay.
  7. Thatch

    spirit holding tanks - codes?

    Whoops, the link I sent should have been helpful but this is the Dalkita link. http://www.americancraftspirits.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Safety-Code-Breaking-Barrels.pdf
  8. Thatch

    spirit holding tanks - codes?

    Plastic totes are only approved for transport but you can walk into most any distillery and see them stacked floor to ceiling. If a fire were to break out they melt and help to fuel the fire. There may be specialized totes that will not melt but common plastic IBC totes are a problem. You need to consult with the AHJ (fire marshall) to see what he will allow. This is not under TTB's jurisdiction, it is part of the building codes. The 240 gallon number is correct but can be doubled when you store in the containers that are listed in NFPA 30. Dalkita is a respected expert in this matter. The link takes you to a .pdf that attempts to make sense of the various specs that are in play. http://www.americancraftspirits.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Safety-Code-Breaking-Barrels.pdf. If you wish to store in 55 gallon stainless, Skolnik's probably your best bet. If you want larger, Paul will take care of you.
  9. Thatch

    spirit holding tanks - codes?

    This is what you need. This is directly from NFPA 30. Skolnik has what you need. http://www.skolnik.com/ 9.4.1* Only the following approved containers, intermediate bulk containers, and portable tanks shall be used for Class I, Class II, and Class IIIA liquids: (1) Metal containers, metal intermediate bulk containers, and metal portable tanks meeting the requirements of and containing products authorized by the U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations in Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 100–199, or by Part 6 of the UN Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods
  10. Thatch

    Ownership Structure

    In any partnership if you plan for divorce before you get married, things go a lot smoother. Think of this like a prenuptial agreement where you decide before entering into the partnership, how to exit. So, what is your sweat equity worth? If I'm your money man, I don't want the waters to be muddied by a minority partner. Furthermore, a minority partner has very few rights. What I would suggest is something where you x% of the gross for each months you were a employed and your get it for x period of time based on your tenure. You might also want to have a formula for a payout in case the company is sold. They'll likely want a cap on either number, which is reasonable to me. The above plan covers firing, quitting or sale of the company. If you are a minority shareholder it is very difficult to walk away with any cash. Both the TTB and your State will have to sign off on your investors which may be your biggest challenge.
  11. Thatch

    Possible Mash Infection, Need Help

    Since your in NY State, you might want to contact Aaron MacLeod who teaches malting at Hartwick College. Aaron does grain and malt analysis. He will likely have to charge you a fee but you'll know for sure if is it your grain. macleoda@hartwick.edu
  12. Thatch

    What is adequate ventilation? 

    We are doing a build out of a distillery that will occupy approximately 600 sq feet within a 13,000 sq foot building that is F-1 occupancy. The consulting engineers believe we need to classify the area which then kicks in special placement and sealing of electrical services. I have found several tidbits on the web that tell me this is not true as long as adequate ventilation is present. From reading various items it seems that adequate ventilation means 6 air changes per hour, or 1 CFM per square foot of floor area used for storage. The requirement is to keep the vapor concentration from exceeding 25% of the Lower Flammable Limit. This is new building and the air exchange would be around 3200 cfm. We have sprinklers throughout and will not exceed 240 gallons of storage, which is our MAQ. The total square footage of storage space will be approximately 30 square feet. All storage will be done in 55 gallon stainless steel barrels. There are no walls within the 13,000 square feet. We will have two 125 gallon electric stills. From both a code stand point as well as a “real life” safety stand point I do not think we need to be classified. One of the points the consulting engineers bring up is: How can we determine there will be no pooling of the vapors that would exceed 25% of the LFL? My first thought is to run a floor fan 24/7/365 to disperse any potential pooling but if there is another common sense approach I’d like to hear it. Any ideas of how not to be classified are appreciated
  13. Thatch

    TTB regs and a sink in distilling area

    The State of Ohio Department of Ag, Division of Food Safety does require both a hand wash sink and a 3 basin sink to wash support items.
  14. Thatch

    Question About Spirit Definition Legalities

    Being in the build-out phase ourselves, there are a lot of additional people you need to make happy. I don't know if you had to get approval to open you repair shop but some cities do not want a distillery. Even if you are not opposed, there are many building and fire codes you will have to comply with and even though these are National in scope the local interpretation can stop you. Then there is your state liquor control board that will have a say in how and what you can sell. Make sure your AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) wants to have a distillery in his city before doing anything else.
  15. Stopped at a distillery in North Carolina last year and was told they could sell 1 750ml bottle per customer per YEAR. I don't believe they can sell direct to restaurants and bars. So, I am happy that we have a bit more leeway.
  16. Ohio allows us to sell two 750ml bottles per person per day from the tasting room. We can also sell directly to restaurants and bars. But, we cannot sell directly to retailers that sell bottles, this must come from a state warehouse to the retailer.
  17. Thatch

    What is adequate ventilation? 

    Thanks Silk The disagreement started before the post but I am not being difficult about it. Frankly if the costs are not a lot more going their way I am going to drop the issue. You are correct, they do not have a grasp. The first problem came when they said that two still equaled 250 gallons thereby exceeding our MAQ.
  18. Thatch

    What is adequate ventilation? 

    Thanks guys, The input is terrific. A special shout out to Silk for talking engineer, to Bluestar for making me think about spill control and to Tim for letting me know that others have had the same issues we are currently trying to tackle. For the next guy that has to go down this path I offer some additional information. Consult the International Mechanical code. Although section 502.8.1.1 tells us how much air exchange is necessary in an area of hazardous vapors, both 502.9.5.2 as well as 502.9.5.4 say that 502.8.1.1 is only applicable if the MAQ is EXCEEDED.
  19. Hi Dave,

    With regard to your question:  Out of curiosity, I'd be interested in knowing if this sort of compendium, of the various sections, into one place, is of interest to those of you who operate distilled spirits plants? Would it be useful, for example, to have, in one place, a description of all of the information you need to know if you are bottling bourbon, making bitters, using wine as a flavoring agent, etc?  Does  it answer a need?  And would you pay for that, say, in the form of an online tutorial, from which you could pick, like items off a menu,. as need?  Would, for example, a discussion of vodka be worth $30, one of bourbon $40, and TTB's stance on GRAS,,  something else?  Would an all access option be attractive?  

    Anything that makes life easier for us we would be willing to pay for.

    Tom Thatcher - West Branch Malts

  20. Thatch

    How do you sell your spirits?

    Thanks Silk, You, Paul and Nabtastic have given me a great outline to follow. Cheers!
  21. Hi all, We are just starting up in Ohio. Ohio allows little guys to do sales and self distribution. Any comments you might have on how/when to approach a bar owner/manager or liquor store owner/manager would be greatly appreciated. I’m looking for do’s and don’ts. Cheers
  22. Thatch

    How do you sell your spirits?

    Thanks nabtastic, I appreciate you taking the time to write. Sounds like great advice which I will use.
  23. Thatch

    New Application TTB consultation

    Ditto and we had one that required some heavy lifting on his part. Former TTB, often quoted on this forum.
  24. Thatch

    Glycol Systems

    If you have a lake or well to draw from for your water source then water will be less expensive. We are in Northern Ohio and we would be paying both the water and sewer charges to cool our equipment which made glycol the best bet. You haven't said anything about the size of your equipment but since you are asking the question I am assuming it is pretty good size. For sizing you will need to tell us what you want to cool and then Mike from MG Thermal who frequents this forum would likely be able to tell you what's best. Another thing to keep in mind is the summer vs winter temp of your water. We get ours from Lake Erie and in the dead of Winter it is 40 degrees but in the Summer it can get as high a 75 degrees which may not be low enough depending on what you are doing. Cheers
  25. Thatch

    How do you sell your spirits?

    Thanks Paul, Seems like good advice in any country.