Classic Lloyd

This is probably part of it, but a lot of the examples I know of use koji (or variant) for their enzymatic power. My assumption is that there would be some sort of benefit to the overall fermentation, either attenuation or additional ester production. My experiment is around growth on sugar cane; were I to take the next step, I might try and utilize the enzymes, but not the koji, by heating it in a way similar to a whiskey mash killing the koji in the process. Most of the non-alcoholic uses (e.g. shoyu, miso, fish sauce) of koji do something similar to this through the use of salt in the fermentation That said, it looks like the shochu you mentioned and arracks both utilize a sake-style by adding in koji and fermentables periodically throughout the fermentation. I went out and got a bottle of Batavia arrack, and I have to say that I'm really enamored with the result. Short of some of the Clairins I've tried, it might be my favorite agricole-like rum. But.... I think you're right here. Part of the test on the sugar cane was to see if you could design something more symbiotic, as I suspect the koji is mostly working on the grain separately to create that agricole-like funkiness. Using grains is a fallback for sure, but it'd be great to design something cane / sugar based.

Ahhhh - thanks for sharing this article! At first glance, this should help answer my main question (how will the koji interact with the cane plant structure / fiber?). This is a test fermentation, so my sugar cane is from the Mexican grocery down the road from me. Â The spores are sourced from a company in Japan (Hishiroku) through a reseller here in the US - I namely use this strain for other non-alcohol uses (shio koji / miso). Â I should also note that I'm using oryzae, not niger for this test, but if the oryzae shows promise, A. niger would be an interesting next step.

Minor update - this idea has stuck with me and I'm running a test fermentation to see if I can get Aspergillus Oryzae to grow directly on sugar cane (as opposed to a grain), and it seems to be taking so far. One curveball - the sugar cane I'm using had a red/purple colored fungus that was present on the husk (and slightly in the substrate), so we'll see if that sticks around.

Is this a thing? I work occasionally with aspergillus and have found it to be very finicky on anything but grains. (I suppose you could add inoculated grains, but then it would cease being a rum)

That strain was definitely a S. Cerevesiae. It eventually adapted to be a prolific producer of acetaldehyde and we ended up shelving it. Generally speaking, our experience is that wild strains lose a lot of their dynamic nature (and diversity) in just a few generations.

Does anyone know of any good repositories of craft spirits market research ?

Can't say whether or not yeast is your issue, but I would recommend trying other yeasts than bread yeasts. Some factors you might consider in choosing a yeast are attenuation, ester / flavor production (or lack thereof), and to a lesser extent strain origin (some yeasts were cultured off of whatever plant you're intending to ferment). Here's a helpful chart from White Labs: https://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/distilling_guide.pdf But also experiment - I'm starting a fermentation today with White Labs Belgian Saison II This is a great yeast for starting out with - you can use it on pretty much anything, and it ferments relatively fast.

I'm curious as to folks' techniques for blending in heads and tails into their final spirit. Our experience has been a bit mixed - heads and tails are definitely are your ticket to flavortown, but wilder rums (thinking Mexican charandas as an example) can get pretty funky and acetoney (sidetone - I actually like these funky rums). What are you guys looking for in your extended distillations to get that a developed rum?

For those of you making brandies - I'm curious as to whether or not you're using pectinase or not. It seems like there's some potential to increase yield and make your wash significantly easier to deal with, but that comes with an increase in methanol production. If you're not using it, how do you deal with pectin heavy fruits. If you are, how are you approaching heads blending? Thanks!

Howdy folks, we're considering sharing a space with a small, existing distillery, for a while we do product research as a way to minimize risk and learn the business landscape. While there's obviously a ton of benefits for both parties, this seems like the sort of thing that Fed / State laws could make really complicated. Does anyone have experience dealing with a sitiuation like this? (FWIW, we're in Texas) Thanks!

Soap flavors can result from actual soap (salt of a fatty acid) forming - could be the water source for your fermentation and/or too high fermentation pH?

It seems like I've come across a fair number of anecdotal accounts that suggest that adding lactic acid does affect the end flavors - it being a fatty carboxylic acid and all, but it still seems like some folks are using it. That said, from what I've seen, most folks are using gypsum, citric acid, or sulfuric acid (or some combo of these) along with lime to control pH. One learning since I posted this. The pH doesn't affect bacterial growth as much as it does yeast growth. The range you're in encourages a fast, clean fermentation. Lower pH's will ferment slower but seem to produce more flavors (for a number of reasons). Also, it takes a number of generations for your backset to become very acidic (well, actually just one really acidic batch). Think about it as a chemical environment that resembles what you're going to ferment in. Carrying batch to batch helps keep consistency there. So, I would definitely think about an acid additive.

Y'ALL. Help the guy build his project and answer the damn survey. It doesn't matter if his customer is doing it wrong - he still needs a grade. Just imagine a hypothetical world where you're lautering after you ferment. That said - @UAHJoe - can you give us a little more information about what grains your customer is using and what the final product is?

Thanks for sharing this - it's fantastic. We're currently running a series of fermentations with a culture cultivated from fresh-pressed sugarcane, which have over a few generations, has whittled down to one dominant yeast, with 1-2 other yeast species also in there. I'd assumed that the dominant species was S. cerevesiae, but this article makes me wonder if I'm not working with something different.

Oh yeah - very much so, although probably less relevant to rum. (I use it mostly for protein-rich fermentations.) Really, I’m trying process all the great stuff in the thread. My original question was really “where do I find bacteria to produce butyric acid esters” and it’s evolved to “how do I create the most conducive environment for overall ester creation?” The shochu article has me wondering, specifically, “how I can utilize dunder to set up a successful fermentation?”

Sort of relevant - a friend of mine using a mix of an enzymatic mold and yeast to create esters on quince: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bsss6e2AcHQ/

Well, with koji-malted fermentations, the koji keeps producing enzymes even after the fermentation has started - mostly amylase, but also a whole host of other enzymes (lipase, protease, beta-glucanase) which dries out your fermentation and often raises attenuation above 100%. I'm thinking about loud, but maybe some dunder can have building blocks for chemical / enzymatic transformation, in addition to the bacteria and concentrated ingredients I'm familiar with reading about.

I was just reading this paper today! It made me wonder what role enzymes play in the overall creation of esters and damascenone. Like - would prefermenting some of your ingredients to prep your main fermentation (a la the use of koji in shochu production) result in higher ester output, in addition to higher alcohol output?

As a huge fan of mezcals, I'd love to see more distillers use this approach. It seems like it's been embraced whole-heartedly in the beer and wine worlds, but most distillers (folks on this thread excluded) have seem more focused on sourcing local to produce something mass-market than they are on trying to ferment local to produce something unique. In case anyone is wondering or hesitant to experiment, I will buy your weird, one-off spirit.

I dig this. I've had a lot of luck producing extremely impactful and flavorful ferments that distill into complex spirits by utilizing spontaneous or hybrid-spontaneous ferments. The problem is that there's low consistency from batch-to-batch, and it's nigh impossible to capture whatever went into the ferment when 99% of the microbes probably die off early on. The challenge I'm working through right now is trying to understand how I might replicate a wild-like ferment using a multi-strain fermentation. One avenue - looking at a lot of this research, and following @bostonapothecary's work - assuming that many of these microbes come from the Jamaican terroir that you may get from a spontaneous ferment, and trying to construct something that way. The second is maybe sending off some sugar cane juice to a yeast lab, and having them identify fermentation friendly strains within the juice, and trying to run a ferment with those, similar to how Jester King brewery got started up. Regardless, I'm learning a lot from being attached to this conversatio SO KEEP TALKING PLEASE.

😂😂😂 I'm guessing that there's some technique on when you decide to introduce your bacteria into the fermentation, so it gets killed off by alcohol % before things get out of control?

For those that are using bacteria to increase acid production in their rums, where are you sourcing your bacteria from? House strains from aged dunder? From a lab? I've been looking into C. saccharobutyricum, but there doesn't seem to be a reliable source selling any samples. Thanks!

I’m trying to get a sense on how I should be adjusting pH during my rum fermentations. I currently add acid to a 4.6 pH and this ferments fine, but I’ve read of folks going lower and higher (presumably to encourage or discourage bacterial growth?) How do you guys adjust your pH in your rum fermentations? thanks!

Thanks everyone!

Hey folks, I'm looking for a reseller in the USA that sells Danstil EDV 493 / Distillimax RM yeast. The only resellers I've found are in AUS and NZ, and I'm no wild about the delay and the shipping costs. Thanks, -ll