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JailBreak

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About JailBreak

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  1. JailBreak

    Bottling line help

    By fill levels do you mean visually looking at the bottle? Or do you mean physical weight/volume? As mentioned earlier, you might have a problem with your glass. Did you recently change glass suppliers? We've had problems in the past with glass that was wildly inconsistent when it came to internal volume. If the problem is with your glass then this issue will persist no matter what filler you get.
  2. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    You are correct that the 'G' stands for grain. If made with something else (must, cane, etc.) they are merely neutral spirits.
  3. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    Also cane neutral is pretty big. Guessing similar to molasses but cleaner. This was the last bit of my argument earlier if you had noticed. I am siding with you on this one and it is my opinion as long as you are producing in accordance with the S.O.I. you don't need a formula. Otherwise it is just semantics because I know a lot of people produce a NGS as an intermediate in their vodka production. There is no difference in my eyes between that and sourcing it besides "naming" one of them vodka as it came off the still (though it hasn't matched the S.O.I. of vodka yet..). I may be 100% wrong but at least my way of thinking makes sense and cuts back on wasted time and money. I do believe people should be 100% transparent with their methods like you are doing @Patio29Dadio.
  4. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    @bluestar Thank you kindly for your time and expertise as well as humoring my many hypothetical questions and questions in general. I have thoroughly enjoyed my learning experience here.
  5. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    Thank you very much, that did help make things a little clearer. I understand it this way now: All vodka is Neutral Spirits, but not all Neutral Spirits is vodka. So even though some of these suppliers make their juice to vodka standards, they for some reason label it as NGS and normally that would require a formula because you are changing class/type. But that begged the question, why does the TTB not require a formula if you make it from scratch (where I know a lot of people are producing a NGS intermediate, just not classifying it at production I guess?) but require a formula if you cut that first part out? So I did some more investigative digging and eventually remembered a previous reply by @Jedd Haas mentioning the "general-use formulas" https://ttb.gov/rulings/2016-3.pdf. It took a bit to wrap my head around it but what I gathered is, as long as you're making a spirit that fits the S.O.I. of vodka, you don't need a formula. "TTB approves a general-use formula under §§ 5.26 and 19.348 for vodka produced in accordance with the standards of identity set forth in § 5.22(a)(1) and containing no harmless coloring, flavoring or blending materials other than sugar in an amount not to exceed 2 grams per liter, citric acid in an amount not to exceed 1 gram per liter, or both." In fact, there is not an option to submit a formula for vodka.
  6. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    @dhdunbar That makes a lot of sense! Thanks for explaining that in such a clear and concise way! Do you have any light to shed on the last part concerning partial harvests and aging? I know the clock stops if you were to dump the whiskey from the barrel, but does it stop if you partially harvest an amount out? Also, I have really been enjoying reading the different methods and procedures, do go on fellas!
  7. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    That's what I figured. Thanks for all the insight!
  8. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    @Southernhighlander Thanks for the information! I did not know that about the two types of mash. I knew what they were, just didn't know one may be better than the other for specific products. Like I said earlier, these are purely hypothetical questions to help me further understand some TTB regulations. I will definitely remember your advice if I ever produce a corn whiskey though! A little off topic but how would you produce that very first batch of sour mash?
  9. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    Am I the only one who has a problem with that? No part of the process changes and the S.O.I. are met either way. But the way it is, 3 separate but identical batches=no formula. One batch split into three products=2 to 3 formulas. The real kicker is, unless you disclose your entire process, no one would be able to tell the difference. What if you make a batch as corn whiskey then realize it is a little funkier than you wanted so you toss it in a barrel to become bourbon instead? Or the other way around, produce a batch of 'bourbon' but really enjoy the flavor as a new make? Just seems like a waste of resources and a burden on the distiller to me. Thanks for the input! Any answers to the barrel questions?
  10. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    Yeah I understand the distinction between the two. That wasn't really what my hypothetical was getting at. What it is getting at is, if I were to do a SINGLE 'batch' (mash, ferment, stripping run, finishing run) with that grain bill, I am able to make 3 products out of it that normally do not require formula approval. But what do I call the distillate fresh off the still? And would I need formula approval if I were to call it corn whiskey then put it into a barrel and call it bourbon, since I am changing class/type? Or what if I were to just call it the general class 'whiskey', would I need formula approval for all 3? One of the only questions not concerning formula requirements is, does the aging clock stop if you partial harvest a barrel even though the remaining whiskey never left the barrel? And one that came to mind just now, are there fill requirements on barrels? Wouldn't a half-filled barrel behave slightly different than a full one?
  11. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    These were all really hypothetical questions regarding formula approval requirements. Also, corn whiskey doesn't have to touch cooperage at all or require a formula. There are several brands out there of a 'white' corn whiskey that state specifically that.
  12. JailBreak

    Whiskey Hypothetical

    Hi all, Fairly green distiller here with an hypothetical that I thought of while trying to wrap my head around some of the TTBs regulations regarding formula requirements. Say I develop a mash bill of 80% corn, 10% malted barley, and 10% rye. Say I distill in twice (not that important) and the proof at distillation is 150. What would I designate the distillate? Would I designate it as the general class 'whiskey'? Or would I designate it as corn whiskey since it fits the S.O.I.? Now follow close. Say I wanted to use that distillate both for a white corn whiskey as well as a bourbon. Could I use a singular batch for both? What then would I call the distillate? Would I need formula approval since I would have to designate it as one spirit (whiskey or corn whiskey) then change it's class/type to another (bourbon) even though bourbon does not require a formula approval normally? Now focusing on a singular barrel of that sweet, sweet bourbon. Say I partially-harvest an amount in 1 year for a small bottling. Would the aging clock stop even though the whiskey leftover never left the barrel? Or could I age it longer than 2 years and get the Straight Bourbon designation? If I am able to, how does that affect formula requirements? All three of those products normally don't require a formula and I'm in no way using weird techniques in production. Would I still need a formula approval for at least 2?
  13. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    Except the TTB doesn't say filtration is a requirement. I don't mean to step on any toes and I have no doubt you know way more about regulations than me, but I have yet to see anywhere where the TTB requires filtration for it to be considered vodka. I vaguely understand the formula requirement, since you could argue you are changing it's classification from 'no type' to 'type: vodka' (as I understand it) but still don't see why it is needed if you are merely diluting. Sorry for being a pain. I am still fairly green but have come to realize a lot of the TTB regulations are structured poorly (IMO). Thank you everyone for being patient in explaining the reasons behind some of them. I have another hypothetical but I think I'll make a new thread for that one.
  14. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    That was where I read that you need to 'do something' to NGS to turn it into vodka. I can slightly understand what Dunbar and Bluestar are both getting at for formula approval, it just doesn't make sense and seems convoluted to me. I also think you should still be able to argue that designating a type-less spirit (NGS is a class, not a type) to one of its types (Vodka) isn't changing its class (still under NGS) or type (it didn't have a type to start with). Here's the hypothetical I think of. I have just ran a distillation run producing near azeotrope. It was distilled to have no distinctive color, aroma, etc. This distillate fits the S.O.I. of two things. The class NGS and the sub-class (or type) Vodka. Whether I name it one or the other should not prevent me from considering the distillate as both. Same goes for if I sourced that NGS through another company. It's a waste of time and tax-payer dollars to have a TTB officer look at a formula approval for changing NGS (made to vodka specifications) to vodka IMO.
  15. JailBreak

    GNS Cost and Availability

    This thread has derailed from the OP a long time ago. That being said, I'm also curious about this because I have seen a few times you need formula approval for vodka made from sourced NGS. I've also heard that you need to redistill or treat NGS with charcoal or some other material to change it to vodka. However, the way I look at it the TTB states NGS is a class and vodka is a specific type of NGS that is: Neutral spirits distilled or treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials so as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste or color. So could you not just dilute to target proof and argue that the NGS you sourced was distilled so as to be without distinctive aroma, color, etc.? Then you would just be designating your NGS as vodka rather than the other type, 'Grain Spirits'. You wouldn't be changing class or type so no formula would be needed. Another way I look at it is when you make whiskey. When it comes off the still it is the general class 'whiskey'. What you do with your distillate will dictate what type it falls under. Whether it be Straight Bourbon or mere corn whiskey. Neither of those require formula because you're not changing the class or type, merely designating it to a type. The two examples seem to be identical. If someone with much more knowledge can show me how I am wrong, in a way that is easy to understand, please do so because this is something I've struggled to wrap my head around. Side not: While I'm not a fan of NGS sourced vodka, I've been in operations that do it. I feel like redistilling it so you can put 'Distilled by:' on the bottle is more misleading than simple dilution and filtering with a subsequent statement of 'Produced by:'. I have more opinions on it and am open to further discussion.
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