needmorstuff

Thanks for the advice, it is what I am hearing elsewhere as well. I was just trying to stay within the tolerance of the yeast and enzymes and considered maybe opimally that being in the middle of the range is the ideal condition. Next time out I am not going to adjust PH at all, not even during mashing and see how I get on. BTW I didn't adjust PH after initially dosing with lactic acid to get me from 6 to 5. It ended at 3.5 Thanks again

using the biab allowed me to remove a lot of the solids, what i was left with was a milky solution. started with 120l of water and 34kg of wheat, I ended up with 115l of low wines at maybe 7.8% if my readings were accurate (sg 1.065 FG 1.005) Stripping it now, using a very low 1500w on a 80l charge, going to take bloody ages but i want to reduce my chances of scorching as this still doesn't have an agitator and the elements are inside it.

being my first one I'm just concerned that maybe something whacky is going on, like it not converting fully and hence finishing quickly. Or because it's a simultaneous scarification and fermentation that it's still a way to go.. i.e. the GA frees up some sugars, the yeast ferments it.. and that goes on for a week or so. anyway, it's not as active today, sat at 21.5c and the gravity is 1.005. The krausen is yet to drop.

lol, yes, 72 hours for molasses. My yeast was fresh, the wash was very sweet before adding the yeast. I didn't do an iodine test as my GA was added and I fermented on the grain. I'll let the krausen drop and wait for activity to die off, then take FG and rack it off/strip it. That'll be the true test.

just measured gravity with my hydrometer, it's at 1.01, and it tastes sour. It's about 70 hours since i pitched the yeast and maybe 62 hours since adding the GA and Nutrients. Could it really have fermented that fast? I'm used to high gravity sugar ferments taking a week to 10 days, but saying that I have done a molasses at 30c in 72 days before. The krausen is still there, it is still producing co2 and it is 7c above ambient so it's still fermenting right?

just a quick update I am kind of doing my own thing, rightly or wrongly but heeding all advice given. I don't think I know better, I am just working with what I have and considering my disposal and scorching as priorities. This is driving a lot of my decision making process. I have to heat the water in the fermenter, I want to use my BIAB to see how it goes and my still has a direct heating element inside. So I ended up drawing 120l water. Leaving 60l in the fermenter and heating it to 90c added gypsum to get me to 180ppm (72 gm) Mashed the wheat in small batches in 5 x separate tubs. I did this so I could have control of the mixing and ensure i could get all the dough balls out. I first heated water to 90c in a 30l bucket and dumped in 6kg wheat, the grinder I have grinds the wheat almost to flour - that's on the biggest hole size, mixed it with drill mounted mixer. Added some AA to reduce viscosity of each. In hindsight I think this could have all just been done in the 55 gallon drum as my drill and mixer made easy work of it. I then reheated the 60l in the fermenter back to 90c and dumped in all the tubs.. all into the BIAB. Mixed it all up, adjusted PH down to 5.5 (from 6 iirc) with lactic acid (80ml) Temp was 75c, add my AA Left it for 2 hours then cooled to 30c with a wort chiller (next time probably just leave overnight) SG measured at 1.060 at 30c using an uncalibrated hydrometer Rehydrated and pitched my yeast Went to bed quite pleased with myself. Woke up early as I must have dreamt i had missed something... it was fermenting away. Got up and added GA and Nutrients 40 hours in and it has a nice krausen, PH is at 3.5, which is just withing tolerance of my GA (3.5 to 5.5), if it drops to 3 then arguably i should consider adjusting upwards with calcium carbonate Temp started at 30c, after 24 hours went to 24c, is now holding steady at 22c, ambient is 15c. I have it all in a 55 gallon blue HDPE drum wrapped in a thin duvet I did have an ispindel in but have pulled it out as I need to calibrate it apparently, and it will probably be useless due to the krausen.

Started my raw wheat mash off, adjusted to 5 using lactic acid prior to using AA enzyme and checked again before adding yeast. 24 hours in and it's at 4.5. My GA works between 3.5 and 5.5, but I know from previous experience too low a PH can stop/stall a ferment. Just wondering how obsessive people are with PH. I'm inclined to leave it but the OCD side of my brain wants it at 5 for the whole ferment.

Good advice and kind of where I was at, who knows maybe my mash will be in PH tolerance with no adjustments needed. I'll know soon enough. I'll hunt out those thread now on PH so I am armed with the info in advance. **edit - citric acid not being preferred, sulphuric or malic seem decent choices. I will be adding calcium in any case so my PH will dictate if i add gypsum as that will lower the PH - or calcium carbonate as that will raise PH** Clumping, I have a drill mounted stirrer I plan to use. Maybe I can use some AA whilst heating to help with viscosity. Burning, I am going to use the BIAB method and ferment in the bag. Hopefully this will get me relatively solid free after fermenting. If necessary I'll let it settle out more before transferring to my still for a stripping run. I need to just get on with it now, lessons to learn, mistakes to make. Small scale so not too costly. Once protocol is dialed in I can consider scale.

Re temps.... Reply from the enzyme company. The optimum temperature for gelatinising wheat starch when relying on endogenous (naturally occurring) enzymes is as you say 58-64 C. This conversion temperature allows the enzymes in the endogenous malt addition (typically around 8-10% of the mash bill) to break down the glucanases and amylases in the grain into more accessible sugars. Gelatinised starch is available for enzymic saccharification whereas non-gelatinised starch is not. If you are not making a malt addition and relying on exogenous (added) enzymes, then the optimum temperature range for the enzyme that you are using will be the vital parameter. You can also work with a combination of endogenous and exogenous enzymes to maximise extract if you wish; this will be particular to your process. The main function of the higher initial cook stage is to break the hydrogen bonds linking the starch molecules and to separate the starch from the protein matrix. This step releases and solubilises the starch ready for the enzymatic breakdown. So, where you have read that a higher initial cook temperature can leave unfermentable complex sugars, I suspect this was referring to the reliance of natural enzymes with no further malt or enzyme addition downstream – this higher temperature would then denature and dramatically decrease the effectiveness of these natural enzymes. As you can see from this graph on the TDS for our DistilaZyme AA: 11 There is enzymic activity from 50-110 C recorded, however the optimum activity is in the 70-85 C region. So, the product will work best at 70-85 but still have activity outside this range. What you don’t want to do is add it in at a much higher temperature as this will begin to deactivate it (so ideally only add at 85 C and below). You mentioned Beta Glucanase in another e mail, we can certainly supply a DistilaZyme BG beta glucanase enzyme. Wheat tends naturally to have lower beta glucan levels than malt/barley/rye etc. and you may or may not need this addition depending on your raw material and mash bill.

@Glenlyon Is the missing key element beta-glucanase? To help with an all raw wheat mash's viscosity

where did those two replies go? forum issue?

Gotcha, I add the AA at whatever temp is best, the mash gelatinizes the wheat. The AA breaks down viscosity and the long chains and makes them available for the next stage. The sacrification step happens when adding the GA after the yeast and takes place throughout fermentation apparently. Yes this is at fermentation temps according to the spec sheet. It was @Glenlyonwho said "high temp conversion leads to complex sugars which you don't want in distilling" I was merely following that advice and assumed your (adamovd) 130 to 140f was backing that statement up, but then you did state none HT enzymes. but maybe I am taking everyone too literally and just need trust what the enzymes can do for me. Worse case I've lost a few pounds of wheat and have a mess to clean up. I have since found quite a few threads where wheat is cooled at high temps, but also plenty talking of step, conversions. The plot thickens.

I will, but I'm based in the UK so that may put a damper on things

Hope you have a successful day! It is true it is a small yield, it is only one aspect to my business with Gin being the main one. This is more an add on to my portfolio. I can scale later. I have worked with enzymes in the past and yes they are amazing.. hence me not even entertaining malt this time around. I'll go back to llalemand with my concerns around the high mash temp and report back what they say, purely for educational reasons.

Lautering might be too kind a description, I was going to try remove some of the grain to avoid scorching. Re conversion, and this is new to me, the llalemand GA is added after the yeast and converts in an operating temp of 25c to 32c.. simultaneous sacrification and fermentation. Weird right! I've always believed the GA is added at a much higher temp and that the higher temp aids in conversion of starch to sugars.. whereas this is cold. The AA breaks doesn't just stop clumping "DistilaZyme® AA is an alpha amylase enzyme selected especially for its ability to break mash viscosity caused by gelatinization of starch and converting it to dextrin chains." I'm not fully convinced and will be performing a very small trial mash and ferment. The high temp suggested by Llalemand for adding AA must be down to a lack of care, i did tell them i was mashing raw wheat, they simply suggested the highest temp possible, and in the pdf details it says "After the DistilaZyme AA is added to the mash/cook tank, a hold time of 60 minutes is recommended at 75 - 85°C to complete the breakdown to dextrins (dependent on grain/starch type and amount in recipe)." but even 75c 167f) seems way too high for Wheat.. with it's optimal range being 136f to 146f (58c to 63c) At large scale, which will still only be 300l mash I will be stripping on the grain in a still with both indirect heat and an agitator. The problem is I don't have access to that and want to use the equipment I have right now, which is a 100l still with internal element and no agitator.. hence wanting to clarify the wash as much as possible by using BIAB. What I am being told is BIAB isn't going to work. So either I perform the stripping run and distill on the grain with direct heat and no agitator or something else? it's the something else I'm trying to figure out. Maybe I'm overthinking it and a stripping run on the grain will be ok with a spirit run after. TDS-DistilaZyme-GA-1.pdf

Thanks for the advice,I I was simply following what llalemand were saying about temps Always good to get the truth from people who have actually done it. So coarse grind, forget being able to remove grain and figure out a disposal route and mash at 130 to 140.

Also I wanted to coarse grind and use high temps.. coarse grind so I can remove the grain with a straining bag and hoist. Reason for not distilling on the grain initially is a don't have an agitator and it's direct heat elements in the still. In a few months I will scale and have both an agitator and indirect heating... So then I can grind fine for better conversion.

Great info, but what a cliff hanger... You can't possibly leave it at that, I don't think I'll sleep 🤣

Thanks for the feedback Michael. I'll spend some time reviewing your article on compressors now 🙂

steel one - this could be for everything apart from spirit transfer https://tfpumps.com/product/aftermarket-sandpiper-dj-s1fb1sgtabs600-with-stainless-steel-wetted-body-and-tfe-diaphragms-1-bsp/ I dont have the budget for 2 of those so thinking this one purely for transferring spirit - https://tfpumps.com/product/flojet-g70k162a-atex-air-driven-diaphragm-pump/

adjusted to include that and GA and nutrient after yeast (advice given by llalemand)

Thanks for the advice, I'll add as you say. They are high temp AA I am planning on using, they told me 85c will be better TDS-DistilaZyme-AA-3.pdf

following, apparently the only way to follow after posting is to reply.

Hi, I have sourced local Winter Wheat, the variety is KWS Firefly which is a group 3 Soft wheat. I plan to mill it myself to a coarse grain and then use DISTILAZYME AA, DISTILAZYME® GA, DISTILAVITE® HY and DISTILAMAX®HT. This is my protocol, I'm looking for criticism and comments if people have time. Also wondering how much PH correction will be needed in peoples experience. I was planning on using citric acid and Sodium bicarbonate to adjust ph. I plan on 183 litre mash, made up of 120l of water and 33.6kg of wheat.

They knew my requirements and shouldn't have recommended that. Thanks @MichaelAtTCW. They do have polypropylene bodies for around the same money with santoprene diaphragm https://tfpumps.com/product/aftermarket-sandpiper-dj-s10b1p1ppas000-with-polypropylene-wetted-body-and-santoprene-diaphragms-1-ansi/