Denver Distiller

Simple Stainless Steel set up we used to mash 200 gallons of mash for special grain-in distillations. Allows for simple, manual mashing. 240v 3 phase electrical immersion heater (pictured) would heat water up the night before mash-in. We used a large square piece of insulation as a lid to keep the heat in. We no longer have these lids High quality Cooling coils fabricated at Vendome allows simple cooling of the mash to pitching temperature. Bottom wall is slightly pitched toward drain. NPT Fitting on side of mash tun available for temp gauges. 2" triclamp valve on tank bottom not included...this is an "as is" sale. We have (2) of these mash tuns. Asking $4000 obo. Location: Denver, CO Contact: distiller@leopoldbros.com

Adding more oxygen will increase the lag phase (the time it takes for the yeast to consume oxygen, create daughter cells, and finally begin fermentation)...the opposite of what he wants to do here. Essentially he'd be adding several hours more for any bacteria to multiply without actively fermenting yeast competing for food. He's using dry yeast. He just needs to activate the yeast properly, and pitch at the proper rate to consume all the available sugars. This isn't brewing, where you're working with a freshly boiled substrate that has a low plate count. What is in his fermenter is loaded with healthy lactobacillus from his malt....if the yeast isn't fermenting, that means the lactobacillus is...... Just trying to help, and just my opinion....

Ok, that's a red flag. 7 hours is a long time in a mash tun. And it occurred to me: what are you using to heat up your mash? You're moving right through temperature that lactobacillus likes at a very slow speed without yeast competing for food and nutrients. This is giving the lactobacillus a head start. It's really difficult to diagnose this from a computer without seeing and tasting your setup. It could be anything from improperly rinsing out your condenser and leaving chemical in the thing, leading to an off flavor......to what I mentioned before: acrolein (which could be described as band aid/phenolic) from lactobacillus. Acrolein can stick to the inside of your still, ruining batches until all internal surfaces come into contact with the cleaning chemical, and are then rinsed. My advice, for multiple reasons: try cutting your grain bill by 1/3rd. To me, this sounds like the most likely culprit. This will greatly thin the mash, accelerating both heating and cooling, as well as facilitating a quicker fermentation as the yeast has far less sugar to eat, leaving nothing for the lactobacillus. Target a 12 Plato mash. Do you know how to do that? Fight to get in and out of the mash tun as quickly as possible. And then after 72 hours, get that mash into the still. If the problem goes away, then you know that the issue is your mashing protocol. It's also easier to get a far higher lactobacillus count in milled grain. You're basically exposing all that starch and things like lignocellulose to the bacteria, and then putting it in a warm sack...whereas whole grains have an endosperm protecting it from harm until moments before mashing.

A few pieces of information are missing. As I wrote before, what you are describing is a lactobacillus infection that is creating acrolein in the ferment and distillate 1. describe the stills you are using. Made out of what? Plates? What's your condenser made out of? 2. When you say you cleaned everything, does that include your still and condenser? 3. How many minutes are you mashing? In other words, how many minutes from when you first mix water with grain until you're cooled, and have emptied the mash tun? 4. How long does it take you to cool your mash? 5. How many hours is it from when you cool and add yeast until you put it in the still? 6. Describe your milling process, and what does your grist look like? I'm assuming you don't have sieves. 7. I'm assuming you are double distilling this in two pot stills. Is that right? 8. What are the exact names and brands of enzymes you are using? My first advice is to drop that high starting gravity. You said elsewhere on the thread that your ferment stopped at 3 brix. Likely this is actually >5, correcting for alcohol. What this means is that you are fermenting 75% of your available sugars, leaving the remaining 25% for the lactobacillus to feed on. What's worse is that you're wasting 1/4 of the grain you bought. If I were you, i'd cut my grain bill by 1/3rd, and start there. Your yeast will make quick work of the sugars, and your hydrometer should read below 0 in 72 hours with no problem. It should also deny lactobacillus the food it needs, assuming you are mashing correctly. Cheers

This is the issue. It's not water (although that needs fixing, too). it's not sanitation. Your customers simply aren't liquifying the corn. It's why the hydrometer isn't dropping to zero. If you're making a bourbon, if you drop a hydrometer ranged 12-0 Plato in the "finished" fermenter and the hydrometer doesn't sink to the bottom of the fermenter after all those enzymes you added...something is wrong. The starch in corn/barley/rye is surrounded by a cell wall made up of proteins, lignins, beta glucans etc. in varying amounts. You need to dissolve the cell walls with heat (gelatinization) before you get to the starch. What you're looking at is a lactobacillus pellicle. All that lactobacillus comes in with the malt, which is rife with lactobacillus. The 90F fermentation you're citing eggs it on. As for the "Super sour, astringent, skunky, medicinal, and also metallic flavor in distillate especially at higher proofs. Sometimes the skunk works it’s way out once we settle into a lower proof, sometimes it stays through the whole run" Here your customer is describing acrolein...also known by industrial vodka producers as "the peppers". Essentially the lactic acid bacteria is metabolizing glycerol in the mash, which yields acrolein in the distillate. Warning: If the level gets to high...they might have to evacuate the shop. Acrolein is a strong irritant that was actually used as an irritant gas in World War I. So your customers need to fix this, pronto.....and, of course, not distill mash that looks like the one pictured. Tell them to add their corn at the higher temperatures listed FIRST to liquify the cell walls, and work their way backwards to the lower temperatures and THEN add the enzymes to saccharify the starch. They are mashing backwards, essentially. Their fermentations are filled with starch, which the lactobacillus is more than happy to consume because the yeast can't eat that starch and therefore isn't competing with the lactobacillus...which is why the infection is happening so fast. If they need to know the gelatinization temperatures of corn, rye, barley....Google. Silk City....good advice, and I like your Bourbon Labels.....

A few things raise red flags here. One, you're not adding beta amylase? Do I have that right? If you're not, there's your culprit. You're forming a ton of dextrins with your alpha amylase enzyme, and those aren't fermentable. HiTempase does the same thing----makes a bunch of dextrins. You could add dextrinase to counter this. And even if you are adding the beta amylase, your temperature rests are too high. You're looking for 144, 145f max to make the most fermentable wort possible. That 155f is going to denature some beta enzymes. 158F, and all your beta amylase will be denatured. So again, you are favoring the production of unfermentable dextrins, without getting the maltose you're looking for. Further, that 150f recommended temperature for beta glucanase is just odd. I mash naturally with malt, so perhaps this is something that's foreign to me, but beta glucanase works best from 113-122 degrees F. In every paper I've ever read, beta glucanse, like most enzymes, is quite temperature sensitive. I can't imagine it working optimally at 150f. Lastly, starch content and beta glucan loading can be all over the place, particularly if you're not working with a farmer that has years of experience with farming grains for beverage production for large plants. In other words: do you know what your starch content is for these specific grains? The fact that harvest just ended sends up another red flag....in other words, this could be an entirely new crop year you're dealing with here.......with completely different moisture content, starch content, beta glucan levels, etc. Have you had this specific batch of grain analyzed? Last time I helped a distiller with this very problem here at ADI forums, the issue was, as I suggested, that the grain he was using didn't have the starch levels he assumed it had. He simply assumed that all grain is the same. As a post script, if I were you, I'd walk a case of booze down the road to the crew at Bell's, and ask if they can help with a mash issue. You've got John Mallet running the show there, as I'd imagine you know, and that man LOVES solving puzzles like this one. He, or one of his brewhouse crew, is likely to spot something in person that you aren't sharing here on the internet. You'd be hard pressed to find more knowledge down the road at Bell's than just about any other brewery/distillery in the world. Mallet is as good as they come.

Break down exactly how much of each grain you are using, and where you got them from.....Farmer, Briess, etc.. How do you mill the grains, and have you changed that procedure of late? You haven't mentioned how you are converting starches into sugars anywhere on this thread. Distiller's malt? One post implied that you are using enzymes out of a jug. If this is what you do...which brand, how do you add it and at what temp? And how old is the batch of enzymes? Further, when was the last time you calibrated your mash tun temperature gauges, or that temp probe you are using? What you are describing sounds like a starch conversion issue. Silk City is right....bacteria isn't causing this problem. But I can't tell what the issue is because you aren't being clear on your grain bill or method of adding enzymes to the mash. A little more information will help light the path. BTW, that mash in the picture will distill just fine. You'll have elevated acetic acid in the distillate, which will lead to all sorts of positive esters as the spirit ages.

Can't give you any promises on pricing, as they don't take shortcuts, but Mansfield Boilers can handle your install up that way no problem. They're as good as they come. They'll also lease you a boiler if that's of interest. Tell them Todd Leopold sent you. Best of luck, and happy & safe distilling.

You should give Briggs in Burton on Trent a call. They'll help you size the right exchanger, and likely find you a British supplier. http://www.briggsplc.co.uk

You aren't overestimating anything, Lenny. The whole "Rocky Mountain Spring Water" thing is just marketing nonsense. Head over to Coors, and ask them where their water treatment plant is----it's the size of a city block. Larger plants-----meaning Breck, New Belgium, the Bud plant up in FoCo, etc. takes water, strips it of salts (Ca, Mg, etc.), and add salts back in to their own specs. Water salt concentrations change from day to day. These larger plants need consistent yeast performance, and can't accept having one day with a Calcium concentration that's in spec, and then the next day it's low by 20%----leading to poor fermentation performance. They need the same water every time. So they all strip to nothing, and add back in to their spec....many plants even have different water specs for different beer styles. As for what you're doing, and I know this is unasked-for advice, might I suggest that you start with a 5 micron filter on your supply, followed by a carbon filter, followed by a final tight paper filtration that will catch any stray bits of carbon, as well as the odd aroma that can sneak in (you can find these on McMaster-Carr). Connect those three filters with your deionizer, and you'll prolong the life of the deionizer, as well as the upstream filters, and I'd suspect knock out the last of your haze. Pop open those filters at least once a month and check for off-aromas or accumulation of solids. Always taste the filters and your water. From there be sure to give a final clean of all tanks, fillers, hoses, tools, etc. that come into contact with your finished spirit with warm citric acid, and a good rinsing with your DI water, to flush away any accumulation of salts. Also, FYI, heavy metals can throw hazes. Don't know if there were any operating mines near your water supply, but even a few ppm can cause issues. Cheers.

I was responding to your comment "why leave it up to chance", and simply pointing out that unless you boil your substrate the way, say, Stranahan's does, you are already "leaving it up to chance". Your fermenter, made of whatever material, will already be riddled with bacteria. There are newer distillers reading this thread who are looking to purchase tanks, and I'm just trying to give my opinion regarding wooden fermenters . I don't mean any offense.

IMHO, it's not chance. It takes skill and experience to know how to guide the bacteria in the directions that you want. But nearly every single whisk(e)y distillery in the world is working with bacteria, simply because the wort in the case of the UK and Japan, or the malt in the case of major US Bourbon producers is never boiled. And this bacterial loading is exponentially higher than the surface area you see in a wooden fermenter. Obviously, you have whisk(e)y distilleries that have been using these methods for, in some cases, a couple hundred years, and of those that've been around that long, they're making world class whisk(e)y....or they would have never stayed in business for that long. Even if you use a stainless fermenter, you've got a whole mess of bacterial loading upstream. Open your mill, and take a swab and plate it. And if you have one, your grain silo. And your grist case. And do you have an auger or two? They're swimming in bacteria, and as you know, they never completely empty of solids. Mash tuns, especially if you have lauter plates, are nowhere near sterile. That's why I asked if you are boiling your wort/mash. If you and Mr. Dehner don't do that, from a bacterial loading perspective, the tiny surface area of a wooden fermenter is the least of your worries. All that will happen with wooden fermenters is that as the years and decades roll by, a small amount of unique bacteria will consume a tiny amount of substrate in each fermentation, leading to organic acids and other compounds that will oxidize into unique esters after the whisk(e)y has been in the barrel for years. But that little bit of work that the bacteria does on the surfaces of your equipment is difference between good whiskey, and great, IMHO, and my opinion only. I've enjoyed this conversation with you.

Actually, I know. I attended Siebel in 1995 with the St. Louis Budweiser head brewer. They are steamed. However, he told us that they are a QC nightmare. The steaming reduced bacteria counts, but he process isn't perfect. And yet they cling to this outdated method because they believe that it wouldn't be Budweiser if they stopped krausening and chipping their tanks. And how about let's just say that you and I got off on the wrong foot, and move on.

Well, that certainly explains why Budweiser puts those porous Beechwood chips directly into their fermenters, leaving them in direct contact with their beer for full three weeks.

I'm assuming that you mean "like sanitizer on stainless". Just to be clear, you can't use sanitizer on a wooden fermenter. With that in mind, no, the 20% abv won't sanitize the fermenter. The wood is porous, and hides bacteria. Steam won't do it either....the steam won't get the heat to all of the nooks and crannies. The reason I add that alcohol to the water I use to fill the fermenters is to make sure I don't let other bacteria go to work on the standing water. It's something we only do maybe once a year when we shut down for vacation etc. The rest of the time, we have fresh mash in there the same day we empty them...with fresh healthy yeast.

Are you boiling your wort before adding the specific strains of bacteria, jamesbednar? I find your approach very interesting.

There isn't any sanitizer on hand in a distillery that uses wooden fermenters. No accidents to be had. Bacteria needs foods and nutrients. You control what's in the fermenters by controlling the food source for the bacteria....and controlling the competing organisms for said food and nutrients (healthy yeast). Why leave it up to chance is a great question, and IMHO, you'll make remarkable whiskey using the method you described. As to the answer to your question, many I have spoken with believe that they get better and more complex flavors from either spontaneously forming bacterial fermentations, or from mutations of said bacteria. Chad Yakoboson of Crooked Stave in Denver and Lauren Salazar of New Belgium Brewing will inoculate their fermenters with a fresh clean culture when the get a new wooden foudre. But they have both told me that the real complex beers are to be had after those initial inoculations have had a chance to mutate, yielding more complex organic acids and flavor. Yes, there's more left to chance using this method...but there's also some fine results that result from the gamble. As for me I've been using the spontaneous method of generating lactobacillus, acetobacter, et. al. in both stainless and wooden fermenters for 15 years now, and I've been happy with the results. Buffalo Trace, coincidentally, just released a whiskey made using a bacterial fermentation that's similar to my own method. http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2015/09/buffalo-trace-to-release-old-fashioned-sour-mash-092315/

The fact that you are totally unaware that wooden fermenters are is use in some of the very best distilleries in the world tells me that maybe you ought to spend a little less time calling guys like me stupid (not nice, and totally unwarranted), or others "posers" (whatever that means), and a little bit more time learning about the industry you are in. Springbank. Hakushu. Glenrothes. Woodford Reserve. Maker's Mark. Balvenie. Santa Catarina Minas (Del Maguey). Four Roses. Chichibu. Arran. Glenfiddich. Yamazaki. Lagavulin. Bruichladdich.....and on, and on, and on......

Here's why we use wooden tanks. Setting aside that the provide a home for bacteria and wild yeast that will yield more complex whiskey. Next time one of your crew is about to clean an empty fermenter, start a stopwatch. Then have a look at how long it took. Multiply that times the entire cost of your employee per hour. Add in the caustic, acid, sanitizer, water, and sewer cost. Then multiply that total times the number of times you turn that tank per year. We're distillers, so you have far more turns per year than a brewer, no? I'd wager you'll hit $1000 per fermenter, per year without much effort if the tank is anything larger than a few hundred gallons in size, and you flip your tanks even just once a week. With our wooden tanks, after pumping the contents to a still, we do one rinse, and push every last bit of that rinse into a still. That's it. Done. No labor cost for CIP, no chemicals. It's ready for refill. This means that in about 9 years, in comparison to a stainless tank of the same size, my wooden fermenters are now free....they have paid for themselves. Meanwhile, after year 9, the meter is still running on those stainless tanks at at least $1K per year, per fermenter......

Hall Woolford. Ask for Jack. Been making tanks since the 1800's.

None that are as cheap as GNS. We make our own vodka on-site too, with the added step of floor malting, so I understand what you're getting at here. We buy GNS to swell fermenters if we can't fill them for a week for some reason, to sanitize our malt floor and steep tanks, and for trial distillations. All you have to do is be honest as to what you use it for.... you're using it to sanitize a fermenter without cleaning chemicals. Can't imagine a bartender or spirits buyer not understanding why you use it. It's a dirt cheap sanitizer. If you're really that worried, just use your own vodka. But you and I both know how much more expensive it is to make it, than it is to buy a tote of outsourced GNS. It's why we buy GNS as a santizer. There's no way in hell I'm going to go to the time and expense malt barley, mash it, and distill it twice......and then use it as a sanitizer. Best of luck....

Buy a tote of GNS. Fill the fermenter with water. Add enough GNS to get the abv to 20%. Cover fermenter with shrink wrap to keep too much of the ethanol from evaporating. If you're leaving it for extended periods, check the abv with a hydrometer to ensure no less than 20% abv. Cheap. Easy. Safe. Never add chlorine or any other chemical to wood.

I'd have a look at your steam traps, and make sure they're working properly.

If you are mashing, use 1 to 10 as a starting point ratio of liters of finished spirit to liters of wastewater. There's little chance you'll use less at a small scale. If you are planning on running your condensers to drain, move that up to 1 to 20. You're not going to get anywhere near single digits. Lowest I've seen from a regionally sized brewery is 1 to 2.5. The current average for large breweries is a little over 1 to 4.1. That's with world class engineering.

If it's only a few bottles/cases, and the rest of a batch is clear, I'd look at residuals in your fill tanks and/or filler, as well as any hoses or pumps. That tells me that you might have a few dead spots that are hiding mineral residue. Over time, a small problem can become a big problem. You said this only happens with your Gin? Look at the tanks/hoses/pumps that only handle the gin….but be aware that the minerals often (but not always) don't come out of solution if they have something to bond with…things like wood sugars. Check your fill tanks with a strong light source when they are dry by running your finger along the stainless surface. Look for white, chalky residue on your fingers. Do the sankey kegs you are using still have their spears? If so, that's a dead spot that's difficult to inspect. Make sure your tanks are cleaned with warm citric acid, and rinsed thoroughly with IO water. If it's only hitting a few cases, one possibility is that you are cleaning your tanks, lifting the minerals into the cleaning solution..but then not rinsing a tank/hose/whatever completely, leaving a clump of salts behind that makes it into some, but not all of your bottles in a single batch. Hope this helps. Remember it's hard to get the whole picture here as I'm staring at a computer screen and not a distillery.