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stevea last won the day on March 2

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About stevea

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  1. Thanks sincerely bluestar. I've an opportunity for some brewery conicals - ~20 beer barrel size - at a good price, but the ~60 degree cones scares me.
  2. I think it's pretty obvious why grist-in ferments are ill-suited for beer brewery conical fermenters, but has anyone done this successfully ? Maybe some re-circ slurry pumps to keep things happy ? How about using brite-tanks as grist-in fermenters ?
  3. Wow - great stuff. Thanks. LCP - right - I don't often think of TN Whiskey, tho' I have some Dickel here somewhere. It is diferent way to impart wood flavors.
  4. I'm pretty certain every person here has a notion of who RBID (Really-big-Indiana-Distiller) is. I've seen their ~24k-27k gallon fermenters and the several big column stills. Out of curiosity - do they use more than a continuous doubler before barreling ? LCP ? I'm missing that acronym.
  5. Uhhm - viewing your other thread, this suggests your authority is unfamiliar with distilling and fire code related to such hazards. F-1 is your occupancy classification. I * SUSPECT * what that are asking for are physical diagrams/drawing, so they can define a "sombrero of death" (google it), then all the electricals w/in the 'sombrero' *should* be Class I, Division 2. If your still vendor won't spec their electrical still heating as class I Division 2, then you have a real problem. You'll likely bump into ventilation requirements too.
  6. 3pg/bu is 223 LA/metric tonne, and should be read readily achievable w/ malt, conventional beer-brewery & non-enzymatic conversions.
  7. Depends on the community. The FM in one local city was the long-pole [he dealt with other industrial flammable production]. In the next city over [also a lot of industrial flammables] FM said they only do compliance inspections and it's totally up to zoning/building.
  8. That's a very high figure and likely only applies to maize/corn with it's higher starch content. USDA reports a fuel ethanol yield of 425.6 LA/mton (w/o cellulosic conversion) in 2014, and you are quite unlikely to match that in a 300gal step mash tun. "The Alcohol Textbook", 4th Ed, Jennsen 2003 has a table that can be converted to ... (LA/mton). 425 LA/mton - finely ground corn (3/16" screen) 395 LA/mton - coarse corn (5/16" screen) 373 LA/mton - barley 358 LA/mton - rye "Whisky: Technology, Production,Marketing" , Inge 2003, describes (then recent) Scotch extraction improvements using 'Chariot' barley malt 420 LA/mton - malt 'Science and Technology of Whiskies' by Piggott et al, 1989 cited a malt figure around 381LA/mton === Grist isn't the biggest expense per barrel and you shouldn't get too upset about 10%-ish lower extraction figures.
  9. I've been down this path with a couple properties. Part of zoning is about what the authority wants to allow for the community, and so a microbrewery model is good starting point. The extra safety/fire code issues are the main difference. DON'T offer extra information nor open new topics, but be prepared to address objections with information. Be prepared to give a high level non-technical glossy overview, then let them drive. Some topics/objection you should be ready to address: How do you plan to dispose of solid waste ? What is your sewerage waste like (BOD, quantities , temperatures) ? If you mill 'process' or 'crush' grain on-site then the dust can be explosive fire code applies. [argue similar to brewery] How much high proof alcohol and at what proof will you have on premises ? There is a difference in the code for 'process' vs 'storage' tanks, so your receivers & mixing tanks, bottling tank are 'process'. Storage tanks & Barrels are 'storage' and wooden barrels have a special status that exempts them from NFPA fire code but not building code. My county is quite prickly about "above ground storage & process" 25ft set-off from property boundaries unless you have exceptional fire-walls. If you are going to store more than a few barrels-worth you'll run into MAQ(maximum allowable quantity) restrictions that will push you to fire containment areas, sprinklers and perhaps an expensive H-3 classification. Vertical stacking of non-exempt storage like pallets of filled bottles, might be a trigger issue. Still over-pressure venting & barrel storage ventilation reqs might be discussed. So be prepared to describ theTalk to your architect/code-guy before hand, AND let them field the code compliance questions. With a tasting room and you could see questions related to local/state code, serving reqs, and proximity to churches, schools, community or rehab centers. It's not really part of the zoning agenda, but you'll want to note the value to the community, economic activity; drawing customers to the area, possible providing some jobs. Observe the 'vibe' of the proceedings. You will get hard questions, but if you come away with the clear impression that they don't want a distillery then it's best to find another location. They can run your biz into the ground with enforcement issues.
  10. >> no way can you get 405mL of pure alcohol from 1kg of grain Yes you can, and the fuel-ethanol types do better than that regularly. You may need enzymes to get to that with malt. The other thing I'd say is that malt is expensive stuff, and used for it's unique flavor. So flavor is generally more important than extractable starch. If you aren't using exogenous enzymes for conversion, then of course the malt enzymes are critically important.
  11. You are off by a factor of two. Sucrose is a disaccharide, so 1mol of sucrose produces 4 mol of EtOH and 4 mol CO2. You won't see much sucrose from malt, instead you'll end up with mostly maltose (another di-sacch) or glucose (a mono-sacch) if you use enzymes. Yes, an efficient operation really can get >400LA from a metric tonne of grains tho' I more often see such high figures associated with corn rather than malt. 405 LA * (789 g/LA) / (46.07 g/mol EtOH) = 6936 mol EtOH 6936 mol EtOH requires the fermentation of 3468 mol of monosaccharide (2 EtOH/monosacch) or 1734 mol of disaccharide (4 EtOH/disacch) 3468 mol glucose * (180.156 g/mol glucose) = 624787g = 0.625 metric tonnes of glucose 1734 mol of disacc * 342.3 g/mol disacch) = 593554g = 0.594 metric tonnes of disaccharide. [[ note the mass difference in sugar mass is just the mass of water needed to hydrolyse the dissach, iow 0.594 mton of maltose + 1734 mol water => 0.625 mton monosacch hexose sugars]] The yeast consume ~3% of available carbon primarily for their mannose cell walls, so you'd need to extract (0.625 / 0.97) = 64.4% of the malt mass as glucose to obtain the 405LA/m.tonne. Too mathy ? A rule of thumb, for most grains and high extraction methods, 3kg of grist => 1kg of EtOH, 1kg of CO2 and 1kg of waste
  12. #2 I got a quote for $47k for the 50bhp Sellers H-series installed from their local rep. I expect their 60hp is ~10% more with similar installation costs. #3. Sellers H-series for direct steam injection. You MUST soften the water well to prevent scaling, but you don't need to add chems to reduce O2 & raise pH as there is no ferrous metal in the H-series boiler. I agree the limited turndown on the Sellers is a headache. Aldrich got my consultant's "thumbs up" as well. I must say the Miura's look very fine, but I would imagine corrosion could be a problem if you run them with RO-water and no chems. There are broadly 3 classes of steam ... http://stellarfoodforthought.net/plant-steam-vs-culinary-steam-vs-pure-steam-what-food-manufacturers-need-to-know/ and if you think you can put in a screen and convert plant steam to culinary steam, then you are on the wrong side of the FDA. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=173.310 The FDA approved chems seem to cost 4x or more than typical boiler chems. Given the high blow-down rates on DSI systems, the chem cost is significant over time.
  13. I was reviewing this thread, as we are having some rye problems in our lab this past week. And after a little consideration there SEEMS to be an error here. I know John well enough to know that he is a bright & honest & very technical guy, so .... 1000gal at 11%-12% ABV is 110 to 120 gallon of pure ethanol. A gallon of pure ethanol is 64.859 mol of ethanol, requiring fermentation of 32.43 mol of glucose equivalent fermentable or 12.88 lbs of sugar. So 110 gal of EtOH requires fermentation of 1416 lb of fermentables. Further there is quite close to 3% loss to yeast mass, so at least 1460 fermentable carbs. from 2000lb or rye ! That is not happenin'. Even some beta-glucans hydrolysis can't ge t you there. 11% in the above would be 459LA/metric on, which equals top top commercial conversions for maize. If you happen to trip across this old thread John, how long a rest do you do for the Laminex C2K ? We have been having great success with the Amylex 5T & SSF2, but we need to work out the rye/C2K.
  14. I've see that study before, and it's a bit hard to interpret WHY copper in the wash condenser and the spirit pot have the most impact. The latter part of pg 110 says ... << When used for the first time, the laboratory scale copper stills produced a spirit with a relatively sulphury and meaty aroma. Several repeat distillations were required prior to the start of this experiment to reduce this aroma suggesting that some corrosion of the copper may have been required in order to activate it. The actual mechanism of sulphur compound removal, however, remains to be elucidated.>> Copper has two oxidation states, and I might *suspect* Copper(I) oxide (Cu2.O) is the more likely hero of the story, can't say. An acid cleaning would eliminate the Cu2O and perhaps make the still ineffective of sulfur removal. The paper blames Dimethyl trisulfide (DMTS) as the main problem. This chem is detectable & obnoxious at parts per trillion! It's not very volatile, but a little goes a long way. Dimthyl Sulfide & sulfoxide are also present in large amounts, but are less problematic. There is an old winemaking trick of adding copper or a little copper sulfate to get rid of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in wine. Copper sulfate can (w/ free chloride ions) remove DMSO. I wonder if copper sulfate in the wash might eliminate the DMTS or precursors. === Do get well soon Paul. I'm not your biggest fan, but I've been through the surgery/pain-killer thing myself and wish it on no-one.
  15. I *suspect* the copper plates & caps will do the job. wrt copper. If you went to stainless you could electro-plate a copper layer in the interior - not hard to do. [for those who might care to pick fights, the rectification fluids & vapor are not electrolytic, and the joint is not exposed], but frankly the glass column is likely to be educational. I recently heard the Beam uses a stainless column but adds copper pipe stacked within the column at some unspecified plate. I can't attest to the accuracy. Odd but plausible.
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