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Deepak Panwar

Understanding impact of Commercial enzymes on Mash Bill

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Hi everyone,

I am currently trying to understand cost implication of either using commercial enzymes (instead of malted barley) or not using anything (no enzymes or malted barley) in bourbon whiskey production

Following are the 2 scenarios that I am trying to study:

  • What would be the impact on the raw material cost, if we use commercial enzymes instead of using malt barley?
  • What would be the impact on the raw material cost, if we do not use any commercial enzymes or malt barley?

Based on some research, i identified one article containing details of raw material composition and cost associated with bourbon whiskey production. 

Mash Bill % in Mash Bill amount of Input required Cost of Mash Bill
Corn 70 750 375
Rye 20 200 92
Malted Barley 10 100 60
Yeast     50
Total Mash Bill Cost     577

source: https://www.thedailybeast.com/why-is-bourbon-so-damn-expensive

Can you help me in understanding how will the 2 aforementioned scenarios change the cost?

Regards,

Deepak

 

 

Edited by Deepak Panwar

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I think we can all agree that your grain costs and I'll go up, heh,  significantly,  if you don't use malt or enzymes.

Don't take it as an insult; but it's like asking if your still will be cheaper to run if you don't heat it.

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And where in the world are you paying 50 cents/lb for corn?  Bourbon is expensive solely because the market supports the asking price.

 

 

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Hello Everyone,

Thanks for your inputs. After further studying various articles, I too realised that the prices quoted in the article are higher plus the scenario 2 does not exists. 

  • Now if we just compare use of commercial enzymes with malted barley. how would the raw material cost would vary?

Mash Bill

% in Mash Bill

Amount of Input required when using malted barley

Corn

77

X

Rye

13

X

Malted Barley

10

X

  • What would be the amount of raw materials required (in pounds) considering 1000 gallon is the target?

Also, i got to know that using commercial enzymes increases the overall yield and hence the amount of raw materials (corn and rye required) is less. Can you help me with calculating the amount of corn and rye required for manufacturing 1000 gallons using commercial enzymes (may be 1 oz or amount used for producing 1000 gallons bourbon whiskey)?

Your inputs would be very helpful.

Regards,

 

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We use malted barley not because of diastatic power, but because it has a different flavor profile that raw.

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Probably going to be strung up for even suggesting this, but in doing a bunch of work with 100% malted and unmalted rye - I find the flavor profile of enzyme converted unmalted rye to be far superior to malt rye.  Granted, there is a huge difference in the location and grower of the base grain, and that may be a big factor, but the difference is not subtle.  To me, unmalted grains come across smoother, more subtle, the rye is substantially less peppery and assertive.

For years I bought into the common thought that malt was far superior to unmalt+enzyme in every single way, no question...  But is it really?

Fire away.

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1 hour ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Probably going to be strung up for even suggesting this, but in doing a bunch of work with 100% malted and unmalted rye - I find the flavor profile of enzyme converted unmalted rye to be far superior to malt rye.  Granted, there is a huge difference in the location and grower of the base grain, and that may be a big factor, but the difference is not subtle.  To me, unmalted grains come across smoother, more subtle, the rye is substantially less peppery and assertive.

For years I bought into the common thought that malt was far superior to unmalt+enzyme in every single way, no question...  But is it really?

Fire away.

Silk, what are your experiences with raw vs. malt barley? 

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None - nobody grows any around here.

But I thought this  one was interesting, brewing related but clearly related.  Look at the congener composition of malt barley beer vs enzyme converted barley beer.  Unmalted is cleaner from a congener perspective.  Keep in mind, unmalted raw grain is low in FAN (aka Amino Acids) - Amino acids are necessary precursors to many higher alcohols/aldehydes/etc.  

917275364_ScreenShot2018-09-04at7_55_07PM.thumb.png.41677e7229910e45de5555bdd8ca1c20.png

brewing_unmalted.pdf

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I would have imagined there would be a ton of literature from the Irish whiskey distillers - since they use high proportions of unmalted grain, compared to say Scotch, but surprisingly there is not.

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5 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

the rye is substantially less peppery and assertive.

Depending on the objective for your rye whiskey, this may or may not be a good thing.. 

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solid can of worms you have opened @Deepak Panwar

Im excited to watch the discussion unfold.

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8 hours ago, Huffy2k said:

Depending on the objective for your rye whiskey, this may or may not be a good thing.. 

It's still unmistakably rye.

WhistlePig's 10+ year old Ryes sourced from Alberta Distillers are all 100% unmalted enzyme converted ryes.

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Silk, this is interesting info to digest.

My limited experience with raw vs. malted barley showed the raw having a major flavor contribution at only 4.5% of the mashbill in a rye whiskey experiment we conducted.  It overpowered the malt and corn content, and even competed with the rye for dominance which was about 2/3rds of the mashbill.

We have not done much with rye malt yet, so I have nothing to comments there.

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