Jump to content
Georgeous

Mash Tun not Heating

Recommended Posts

not yet, need to figure out the problem still. waiting on chinese manufacturere to call back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Paul said something before that was interesting, about insulated tanks.

I know other folks that have had issues with bad tanks from China where the welds between the steam jacket outer wall and the insulation were bad, and when they poured in the two part insulation mix, the insulation expanded into the steam jacket area.  Likewise, steam was able to escape into the insulated area.  Pressure test ain't going to catch it.

That's why I asked about the insulation before.  Hoping you don't have insulation, and this ain't the problem, because they ended up scrapping the tank.  They were able to get a bore scope into the steam jacket, but based on those triclamp elbows, I'm not sure that's possible - maybe from the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2019 at 4:17 PM, Silk City Distillers said:

Is the mash tun insulated or not?

i dont know, how do i tell it is all welded shut

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

working our asses off alll day using still to heat the water and transfer back and forth. this is a nightmare setup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2019 at 5:56 PM, Silk City Distillers said:

Is there an air vent on the topmost port of that jacket?  

Air is a very good insulator.

The port locations do not appear condusive to forcing air our the condensate drain.

 

 

are you asking about inside or outside of the tank. i am not sure and dont know what to look for. but i dont see any obvious vents. These are steam jacketed so i wouldnt think they have baffles or insulation not really sure. i use them i dont build them. now one this we did try was we pumped water in the triclover where the steam pressure valve connects and watched it drain down with no resistance to the bottom of the tank where we had the return steam port disconnetct and plugged to a hose. i am guessing i will have to plumb both jackets to steam and buy a chiller. Any recommendations on what kind? i saw paul mention a tube in tube, i hear lots of guys using plate chillers whats the difference and costs. i saw on the peer to peer sales someone got a monster for sale vendome made. i dont know i am a hurt unit right now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay here's a shot left answer ..... have you possibly got a scale build up within the MT jacket that is cause a blockage.  If so you may need to look at some cleaning agent working in reverse flow through the jacket to break this all down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, richard1 said:

Okay here's a shot left answer ..... have you possibly got a scale build up within the MT jacket that is cause a blockage.  If so you may need to look at some cleaning agent working in reverse flow through the jacket to break this all down.

as this is a brand new mash tun first time use it is not likely to have any scaling. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

ok so i heard back from Chinese manufacturer. See what they wrote me, it is as clear as mud. i also attaches full schematic of mash tun in pdf format. i really appreciate everyone's help and advice. We are a great community here. 

 

Dear George ,
Pls kindly check my answers as below:
When order confirmed drawings,there only had steam heating jacket under the head of the mash tun.
The pictures you draw of C and H, (H is to increase the jacket safety exhaust location from the bottom to straight edge.
The aim is for the convenience of installation exhaust valve and the pressure gauge.
So straight edge has a position (H) for which is hot), heating layer is at the bottom of the head, please see the Enclosed drawing.(See image below).
Any question ,pls tell me 600Gals 糖化锅图纸.pdf

 

 

GetFileAttachment?id=AAMkADJlZTM3ZDY4LTJlMWUtNGRkNy1iN2EwLTkxZTM3M2RjZjZkOABGAAAAAACw3pA620j%2FQb350DT%2BXWxpBwB5HG0kuvMXRI%2BEvxyUc%2F2DAAAAAAEMAAB5HG0kuvMXRI%2BEvxyUc%2F2DAAC4sCsWAAABEgAQAPc%2BvAyPVe5Auffexn8b4Og%3D&X-OWA-CANARY=JtJU96r-BE2HFjQerU5f7mCBv7hAfdYY79phwpA_uB1sT6V9hS071SH1WhpOkt4wvDAFfqmSOkM.&token=eyJhbGciOiJSUzI1NiIsImtpZCI6IjA2MDBGOUY2NzQ2MjA3MzdFNzM0MDRFMjg3QzQ1QTgxOENCN0NFQjgiLCJ4NXQiOiJCZ0Q1OW5SaUJ6Zm5OQVRpaDhSYWdZeTN6cmciLCJ0eXAiOiJKV1QifQ.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.jJFgkdvvKSwwJwetB0b-pW4v12PsvAZ-HUf07BuQBP_obwcxuIPeJxoq60IcPULkGdffjtrBXtuMyVyUyD0xQIsrmif7wkw463D3y1F2KosN6RLS0kr2F7BWPz593Mu1PwyZ_TrubS_eq3l3CQ9GcfInB0vFdbw07UB3ZZMDptXb3dTdbLIlaLtiYc1GN1aZKG1h6u7J7SEeNRazImGibRGvEGenjgv2rWwxaDFjXpCodJLbKQIjfENE_tH0BQsIeJ3-WJbsjPoYAFbOvNNUHQ82ib6qFzxiWz5509stNH-5djcJr09b2UQEeihuX-C_XqI-caycGeLvMrDxftIGZA&owa=outlook.office.com&isImagePreview=True

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks pretty straight forward. Hook up the steam to the main jacket and it should be fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your over pressure relief valve ... Safety pressure release valve for steam jacket at connection ... N5-1.  For gods sake go and immediately change it for a proper steam pressure relief valve.  Someone is going to get VERY HURT if that goes off and they are standing next to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried running it with the steam trap in place, but the condensate line  disconnected?  (Just capture the condensate from the trap in a bucket)  This would tell you if the problem is with the return piping.

Drawling also shows an agitator.  Have you tried agitating while heating up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously you just need to stop screwing around and hook up the steam jacket like every other one on the planet earth.  Running it from the bottom only is exactly like using a double boiler  to melt chocolate (warm and gooey, but not hot).

prost

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, richard1 said:

Your over pressure relief valve ... Safety pressure release valve for steam jacket at connection ... N5-1.  For gods sake go and immediately change it for a proper steam pressure relief valve.  Someone is going to get VERY HURT if that goes off and they are standing next to it.

please explain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, HedgeBird said:

Have you tried running it with the steam trap in place, but the condensate line  disconnected?  (Just capture the condensate from the trap in a bucket)  This would tell you if the problem is with the return piping.

Drawling also shows an agitator.  Have you tried agitating while heating up?

yes we agitate while heating and we disconnected line after trap. only steam flowed out no water and still did not heat 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Roger said:

Seriously you just need to stop screwing around and hook up the steam jacket like every other one on the planet earth.  Running it from the bottom only is exactly like using a double boiler  to melt chocolate (warm and gooey, but not hot).

prost

 

We have the boiler guy coming out this monday to do just that. Problem we dont have a wort chiller so need to figure that one out. We were thinking of doing what davis valley does and have a bypass where both jackets get steam and both jackets get cooling water when time to chill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I designed Davis Valley's equipment.  They purchased one 300 gallon mash tun and two 800 gallon mash tuns from me over the years and now I am building them a 2500 gallon mash tun.  Of course they have also purchased 3 stills and around 20 fermenters and a steam boiler.  All of my mash tuns have an inner jacket and an insulation jacket over that.  I would never design a mash tun with a heating jacket and a cooling jacket that are seperate.  My mash tuns are specially designed so that you can use the steam jacket for cooling as well and I supply the plumbing design to do that.  Unless your pot was built specifically to do that it may crack the welds or rupture.  
   It seems like we gave you some quotes or did we?.  I'm sure you purchased from the Chinese because their prices were lower.  Now you are suffering the consequences of that decision.  I usually tell everyone to beware buying from the Chinese.  One thing that I do is I put several flaws in my designs that I give them and we correct those flaws here.  I am not the only one that does that.  I do that so that when they sell my designs to others, the stills and even the mash tuns will not function correctly.  The Chinese factories share designs from their customers with each other as a matter of course.  The Chinese manufacturers do not create their own still designs, they just steal them from their customers etc.  I feel bad for people that buy stills built to my designs, directly from China that won't work but I must protect my intellectual property.  Also the vast majority of Chinese companies do not give a shit if you have problems.  They may answer an email or 2 but they usually will not supply parts and most of the time they don't understand how the equipment works.  There is 1 or 2 that do stand behind their equipment but even the biggest one of them stole their designs from Kothe and other German manufacturers by hacking their computers, or that is what is being said anyway.  When you buy distilling equipment directly from the Chinese you are usually buying stolen intellectual property and you are always taking a risk.  If you buy from me you have the piece of mind knowing that I stand behind it and supply the specs and cut sheets that you need to install it and am here to give you whatever support that you need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadly, stolen intellectual property is the largest Chinese import, and knocked off designs are their biggest export. It's the primary negotiating point in the US / China trade negotiations. I have a friend who is the chief metallurgist for a company I can't name, and he says the problem is that china will not allow US goods to be manufactured over there (US part ownership)  unless they turn over the entire design to the state run "commercial enterprise" division. So we essentially give away years of hard fought technology, for the sole purpose of employing cheap labor to take our jobs. Sweet ! Do we get a free fortune cookie with every imported piece of shit ? 

America - your fortune: You're screwed !

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

I designed Davis Valley's equipment.  They purchased one 300 gallon mash tun and two 800 gallon mash tuns from me over the years and now I am building them a 2500 gallon mash tun.  Of course they have also purchased 3 stills and around 20 fermenters and a steam boiler.  All of my mash tuns have an inner jacket and an insulation jacket over that.  I would never design a mash tun with a heating jacket and a cooling jacket that are seperate.  My mash tuns are specially designed so that you can use the steam jacket for cooling as well and I supply the plumbing design to do that.  Unless your pot was built specifically to do that it may crack the welds or rupture.  
   It seems like we gave you some quotes or did we?.  I'm sure you purchased from the Chinese because their prices were lower.  Now you are suffering the consequences of that decision.  I usually tell everyone to beware buying from the Chinese.  One thing that I do is I put several flaws in my designs that I give them and we correct those flaws here.  I am not the only one that does that.  I do that so that when they sell my designs to others, the stills and even the mash tuns will not function correctly.  The Chinese factories share designs from their customers with each other as a matter of course.  The Chinese manufacturers do not create their own still designs, they just steal them from their customers etc.  I feel bad for people that buy stills built to my designs, directly from China that won't work but I must protect my intellectual property.  Also the vast majority of Chinese companies do not give a shit if you have problems.  They may answer an email or 2 but they usually will not supply parts and most of the time they don't understand how the equipment works.  There is 1 or 2 that do stand behind their equipment but even the biggest one of them stole their designs from Kothe and other German manufacturers by hacking their computers, or that is what is being said anyway.  When you buy distilling equipment directly from the Chinese you are usually buying stolen intellectual property and you are always taking a risk.  If you buy from me you have the piece of mind knowing that I stand behind it and supply the specs and cut sheets that you need to install it and am here to give you whatever support that you need.

yes i bought from China and not just for price, i spoke to many breweries and distilleries who bought from this company and all were overly pleased with their customer service. Yes i have had a lot of minor issues with the stuff but damn they throw everything on a plane and dhl it to me at no cost. They so far have sent me thousands of dollars of extra parts. For instance my pump motors were not rated for my 3 phase so they sent me 4 new ones that were no questions asked. Now i need them to step up to the plate with this. Other reason i bought from them there were things i wanted like agitators on the fermenters,  and closed top fermenting. i did get a lot more bang for the buck but need to deal with the MT, everything else seems ok thus far

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Roger said:

Sadly, stolen intellectual property is the largest Chinese import, and knocked off designs are their biggest export. It's the primary negotiating point in the US / China trade negotiations. I have a friend who is the chief metallurgist for a company I can't name, and he says the problem is that china will not allow US goods to be manufactured over there (US part ownership)  unless they turn over the entire design to the state run "commercial enterprise" division. So we essentially give away years of hard fought technology, for the sole purpose of employing cheap labor to take our jobs. Sweet ! Do we get a free fortune cookie with every imported piece of shit ? 

America - your fortune: You're screwed !

Looks like Trump just struck a deal with them, stock market soaring upwards today

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Georgeous said:

We have the boiler guy coming out this monday to do just that.

Ask them to install proper air vents and vacuum breakers at the tops of both of those jackets.

Installing vacuum breakers without corresponding air vents will cause significant inefficiency in heat transfer.  Depending on the jacket geometry, air can get trapped in a way that's not easily pushed through the trap.  I would not trust those jackets without vacuum breakers, and you will not maximize jacket efficiency without air vents.

Looking at the bottom jacket, with the steam port and condensate drain at the bottom of the tank, it's highly likely that you are trapping air at the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Silk City Distillers said:

tank_drawing.thumb.png.fa65e50aafcc4af92276f986029f697a.png

Can you show me photo of yours so i understand what is wrong?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, the chinese came back to me and are saying this was my request. Assholes, this was their design. See below email i got from them

 

Dear George ,

 

1.As to the problem of the heating jacket,pls kindly check our answers below:

At the beginning,you ask to make the bottom of the mash tun steam jacket,and the straight side of the tank is made into a cooling jacket.

Now there is not enough heated area in this steam jacket,It is related to your initial request.

I think now the only solution is,making the cooling jacket on the straight side of the tank,also through steam heating.

This will ensure the heating effect,and this is what we made for other customers.(The bottom and sides all used for  heating,instead of having straight edges to cool down).

At this point, you'd better replace the straight edge mezzanine used for cooling with a bucket of steam to heat it up, which will solves the problem.

 

 

So i got boiler guy coming out this week to plumb both jackets and we are going to see if possible to do what Paul mentioned up a few posts to pass cooling water and steam through the jackets.  or i will have to come with another method of chilling the mash for different temperature additions. How do you guys handle this?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, and I have tried to help, but quite frankly it appears that you screwed up. You apparently decided not to avail yourselves of any known US based equipment providers and then decided to design a "new type" of mash tun. When it didn't work, you blamed the company that made it to your specs. Kind of like "the customer is always right, in reverse".

just curious, when you were making your decision did you even ask any legitimate still / mash tun suppliers about heating and cooling protocol and options ? Like "can I use the tun for both, and what would it look like ! Valves, pressure, surface area, time, etc....

Not to beat you up, as I always appreciate individuals who don't travel the MGP clone path, but I see on another string you don't even seem to grasp the Alpha / Beta / Temp protocol. You need to spend some money on consultation and education, or you are going to struggle for quite some time. 

As per Silk, put some vacuum breakers on that dog, lower the pressure relief valves, and turn down the pressure on your boiler a bit, before you kill someone.

prost 

 

 

  • reaction_title_1 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×