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500 liter, Steam or Electric

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I am starting up in Canada and would like to your thoughts on whether to go Steam or Electric.  Any thoughts on supplier Specific  Mechanical

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On 3/7/2019 at 12:56 AM, Animal said:

I am starting up in Canada and would like to your thoughts on whether to go Steam or Electric.  Any thoughts on supplier Specific  Mechanical

Hi 

By 500L,do you refer to distiller?

For 500L distiller,electric or steam are OK based on heating speed from customer's feedback so you can decide the way based on actual needs.Generally steam heating is more energy-saving way.

If need more help on alcohol distiller and beer brewing system,please do not hesitate to send message to daey008 at dayuwz.com.

Best regards

Catherine from DYE 

 

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steam or electric is a no brainer steam is always the way to go . if your looking for a great steam boiler manufacturer check out saskatoon boiler manufacturer , out of all the companies we have ever dealt with they are by far the best we have seen . 

tim 

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Just so we are clear, we do not have Natural Gas available in our area. Does it make sence to use electricity to produce steam when we can just heat the mash tun or pot still with electricity.  

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we are runing a 15 hp boiler that produces 502 000 btu per hour that burns dzl fuel .....costs us about $2.66 a hour . we dont have natural gas either thats why we went dzl .

tim 

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Animal,

 

If your electric is 15 cents per KWH and your run time is 6 hrs. your electrical costs would be around $5.00 per hr so diesel fuel is a good choice.

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Oops,

 

I was thinking 1,000 liter for some reason.  For a 500 Liter you would be looking at around $2.50 per hour for a stripping run and during heat up and around $1.25 to $1.50 per hr for running higher proof products. However, we are talking less than 100,000 BTUS, so Hudson Bay's boiler still costs a great deal less per BTU.

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On 3/11/2019 at 3:01 AM, Hudson bay distillers said:

steam or electric is a no brainer steam is always the way to go . if your looking for a great steam boiler manufacturer check out saskatoon boiler manufacturer , out of all the companies we have ever dealt with they are by far the best we have seen . 

tim 

I dont think you can generalise as you said.  The decision to use steam or electric firing for any still, is dependant on many factors.  Size being one major factor.  A 500L pot is very much on the boarder between Steam and Electric.  

Key benefits of various firing methods;

  • Governing point: Electricity, NGas, LPG and Oil prices vary greatly around the world.  Always compare the different fuel options available to you.
  • Direct Electric Element
    • Cheapest option
    • Best end to end heat transfer efficiency (if sized correctly)
    • Fastest boil-up time for a given power input
    • Easy to proportionally control
    • No boiler, no boiler water prep issues, no condensate issues, no boiler certificates/inspections
    • Not easily scalable to very large pots.
    • Has limits regarding total power density (coking of elements)
      • Oil jacket helps this
      • Always have a wash stirrer
    • Generally suits smaller (less than 200L) pots well.
  • Steam (electric fired boiler)
    • Adds the complexity of a boiler, steam distribution, condensate recovery etc
    • Gives you a steam supply for other applications
    • More efficient than flame (gas/oil) boilers, but less efficient than direct electric
    • May require feed water tanks, blow down tanks, condensate tanks, condensate recovery lines depending on design, which direct electric does not
    • E.Boilers are usually more compact than flame boilers
    • E.Boilers have practical limits on size, due to available electrical supply
      • E.Boilers over 500kw/50hp are usually the upper limit.
      • But chaining e.boilers will extend this
    • Tend to be lower in price per kW over Flame Boilers
    • Proportional control is easier, hence better energy usage at low firing
  • Steam (flame fired boiler)
    • Adds the complexity of a boiler, steam distribution, condensate recovery etc
    • Gives you a steam supply for other applications
    • Less efficient compared E.boilers, but less efficient than direct electric
    • May require feed water tanks, blow down tanks, condensate tanks, condensate recovery lines depending on design, which direct electric does not
    • Need flues and fuel feed lines
    • Flame Boilers are usually larger than flame boilers, per Hp up to 50Hp
    • F.Boilers have no real practical limits on size, you can build them big
    • Tend to be lower in price per kW over Flame Boilers, above 50hp
    • Proportional control is awkward, hence poorer energy usage at low firing
    • Longer boil-up time compared to e.boilers & direct
    • All flame boilers still require a substantial electrical supply for feed pumps etc.

Factors to be considered in determining the best firing methods;

  • Size of pot, time to boil
  • Boil-up time of boiler
  • Cost of fuel/electricity
  • Is off peak electricity an option
  • Legislation regarding boilers in your area
  • Does you still supplier provide steam jacket options
  • Space for boiler house, fuel storage
  • Size of operation (several larger stills are more suited to steam)
  • Layout of site, pipe runs etc
  • Available max electrical supply
  • Type of run (hard boil stripping, or low boil refrac)  ease of control.

 

Hope this helps

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We now have stills that have self contained steam systems and they are fired by electric elements that create steam in the jackets.  These are open systems that operate at 14psi.  Also we sell electric baine marie stills as large as the customer wants.  We have sold several that are 300 gallon capacity and some that are 500 gallon capacity.

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Oz distilling.  I really like your post concerning steam versus electric and electric boilers versus gas.  You give some very good info.

.  However we have had customers that went with very large electric stills because of there special situations.  Those customers could not find anyone else that sells electric baine marie stills over 150 gallons, so (from what I can tell) we get all of the business in the US for baine marie stills that are larger than 150 gallons.  Also we are the only company that I know of in the US that can build 20 plate vodka stills that fit under 10' ceilings, so we get all of that business as well.  What I am saying is, that some situations buck the norm and in those situations you need a still builder that is flexible and willing to do things that others are not willing to do.

We also have stills that distill at 50C and can complete runs in 1.5hrs from start to finish, however our customers that buy those are generally in the cannabis business.

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3 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Oz distilling.  I really like your post concerning steam versus electric and electric boilers versus gas.  You give some very good info.

.  However we have had customers that went with very large electric stills because of there special situations.  Those customers could not find anyone else that sells electric baine marie stills over 150 gallons, so (from what I can tell) we get all of the business in the US for baine marie stills that are larger than 150 gallons.  Also we are the only company that I know of in the US that can build 20 plate vodka stills that fit under 10' ceilings, so we get all of that business as well.  What I am saying is, that some situations buck the norm and in those situations you need a still builder that is flexible and willing to do things that others are not willing to do.

We also have stills that distill at 50C and can complete runs in 1.5hrs from start to finish, however our customers that buy those are generally in the cannabis business.

Of course, I agree.  Every application must be individually assessed and the design options considered.  One size never fits all.

In my 20 years I have never seen two installations the same.

My Gospel:   Define your requirements, research the various options to meet your requirements (every supplier has a different view), cost your options for installation, operation and maintenance, pragmatically review the costs and benefits, get it all checked by an independant expert, remove the emotion, make a decision.

We are saying the same thing.

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3 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

We also have stills that distill at 50C and can complete runs in 1.5hrs from start to finish, however our customers that buy those are generally in the cannabis business.

50C ?  Obviously not ethanol stills?  or are you running partial vacuum?  

I am interested in the Cannabis application.. as the Boiling point of THC is ‎155-157°C @ 0.05mmHg, how are they using your stills?  Binary azeotropes of THC?

Cannabis is still a Class 1 drug in Australia, with all the penalties that our nanny state imposes.  Our lawmakers are anything but progressive.

Fortunately Alcohol is still legal here.

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On 3/11/2019 at 7:09 AM, Animal said:

Ok, I will look at the numbers for a dzl one.

 

Thanks

Also investigate Heating Oil, if available in your area.  Its usually a lot cheaper than Diesel, and has almost the same calorific value.

Do your sums for all options.

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On 3/6/2019 at 10:56 AM, Animal said:

I am starting up in Canada and would like to your thoughts on whether to go Steam or Electric.  Any thoughts on supplier Specific  Mechanical

that small you could do either one. Depends on how you are really doing everything else. Steam will cost more up front but will save you loads for time and headaches.

 

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On 11/8/2019 at 6:50 PM, OzDistilling said:

50C ?  Obviously not ethanol stills?  or are you running partial vacuum?  

I am interested in the Cannabis application.. as the Boiling point of THC is ‎155-157°C @ 0.05mmHg, how are they using your stills?  Binary azeotropes of THC?

Cannabis is still a Class 1 drug in Australia, with all the penalties that our nanny state imposes.  Our lawmakers are anything but progressive.

Fortunately Alcohol is still legal here.

In our main process for hemp to cbd extraction, is done with ethanol.  The vacuum reclamation still is filled with the oil laden ethanol, which was pumped over from the wash vessel through some filters and the after pumping is complete distillation is done very quickly under vacuum at 50C to reclaim the ethanol for future use and to concentrate the oil for further processing.  This is done at 50 C or lower to preserve valuable terpenes, which have a broad range of boiling points. 

Next we winterize at -28C and then we filter out the waxes and lipids using very fine filtering mediums and vacuum to pull the more concentrated oil ethanol mixture through the filtering medium.  The chlorophyll is removed using molecular bonding and vacuum filtration.   Then the residual ethanol is removed under vacuum in a roto vap, then we decarb in a decarb still and then we short path and run 3 fractions. Then we run the 2nd fraction again into 3 fractions to concentrate the CBD in the center fraction to over 90%.  Next we use reverse phase, column, flash chromatography utilizing vacuum to pull it through the super fine silicate, to separate out the residual THC which is disposed of.   I'm leaving out a lot of things in between.  It is very complex.  However there are several different ways to skin this cat and lots of different methods are used with other solvents.  Residual ethanol is removed using vacuum distillation and or vacuum ovens and vacuum chambers.  It's extremely profitable at the moment with THC free CBD distillate selling for over $10,000.00 per kilo.  However the prices for dried hemp and crude oil have fallen in the last year. CBD distillate is holding up well and price projections are good for the rest of the year in that category. and now CBG is becoming very valuable.  We distill off terpenes at every stage of the process as they are valuable as well.  The waxes and lipids are collected to be sold for use in lotions and soaps.  These are some interesting businesses to be in, to say the least.

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On 11/10/2019 at 5:37 PM, Southernhighlander said:

In our main process for hemp to cbd extraction, is done with ethanol.  The vacuum reclamation still is filled with the oil laden ethanol, which was pumped over from the wash vessel through some filters and the after pumping is complete distillation is done very quickly under vacuum at 50C to reclaim the ethanol for future use and to concentrate the oil for further processing.  This is done at 50 C or lower to preserve valuable terpenes, which have a broad range of boiling points. 

Next we winterize at -28C and then we filter out the waxes and lipids using very fine filtering mediums and vacuum to pull the more concentrated oil ethanol mixture through the filtering medium.  The chlorophyll is removed using molecular bonding and vacuum filtration.   Then the residual ethanol is removed under vacuum in a roto vap, then we decarb in a decarb still and then we short path and run 3 fractions. Then we run the 2nd fraction again into 3 fractions to concentrate the CBD in the center fraction to over 90%.  Next we use reverse phase, column, flash chromatography utilizing vacuum to pull it through the super fine silicate, to separate out the residual THC which is disposed of.   I'm leaving out a lot of things in between.  It is very complex.  However there are several different ways to skin this cat and lots of different methods are used with other solvents.  Residual ethanol is removed using vacuum distillation and or vacuum ovens and vacuum chambers.  It's extremely profitable at the moment with THC free CBD distillate selling for over $10,000.00 per kilo.  However the prices for dried hemp and crude oil have fallen in the last year. CBD distillate is holding up well and price projections are good for the rest of the year in that category. and now CBG is becoming very valuable.  We distill off terpenes at every stage of the process as they are valuable as well.  The waxes and lipids are collected to be sold for use in lotions and soaps.  These are some interesting businesses to be in, to say the least.

TY for the explanation, a fascinating subject.  I am a Chemical Engineer by profession, so I get your process.  CBD seems to be a complex cocktail to seperate.  But you answered my question with vacuum distillation.

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