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20-30 Gallon Development Flute Stills


Blue Bolt

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After a few weeks of really honing in on what I need, I've all but set my mind to this hybrid/flute from Mile Hi here.  I'll be experimenting and refining technique with this still for about a year while I build out some other aspects and experiment with yeasts.  It also approximates the same setup I'd hopefully scale to eventually.  I will be using it to produce rum primarily. 

Does anyone have any immediate alternatives that comes to mind for near the same price point?  I have seen StillDragon often mentioned but their website has little to no flutes currently listed so I'm not really sure what is going on over there and doesn't inspire much confidence.  Don't like that the Hillybilly's aren't modular (in regards to the column).  Another option I came across here, from distillery-equipment.com but after doing a good bit of reading it seems like perf plates and downcomers are potentially more maintenance free than these bubble cap setups....although I know plenty of people work with bubble caps with no issue so that consideration is small.  Anything similar options I'm overlooking or additional thoughts on vendors I've mentioned would be greatly appreciated.

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Perf plates are less flexible than bubble caps.  There is a concept called turndown, it’s the range of operating conditions the tray can support without flooding or dumping.  Bubble caps have a significantly wider turndown range than perforated.  What’s that mean to you?  It’s more flexible.  It’ll run faster or slower and with more or less reflux.  It's better, on every single measure possible (except maybe price).  Would think, that for a development still, experimental still, you want the widest potential set of options to utilize.  Modular, bubble cap.

Perf trays have their place, they work great in dedicated columns that run in a really tight range, usually making one thing (vodka).  In those cases, you don't need turndown and flexibility, you need the column to do one thing, every day, and not deviate.  So you can save lots of money by using the less expensive tray type.

i wouldn’t spend money on any kind of perf plate column.  Most of that stuff comes right out of the hobby community from 10-15 years ago, when nobody could get a bubble cap.

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6 hours ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Perf plates are less flexible than bubble caps.  There is a concept called turndown, it’s the range of operating conditions the tray can support without flooding or dumping.  Bubble caps have a significantly wider turndown range than perforated.  What’s that mean to you?  It’s more flexible.  It’ll run faster or slower and with more or less reflux.  It's better, on every single measure possible (except maybe price).  Would think, that for a development still, experimental still, you want the widest potential set of options to utilize.  Modular, bubble cap.

Perf trays have their place, they work great in dedicated columns that run in a really tight range, usually making one thing (vodka).  In those cases, you don't need turndown and flexibility, you need the column to do one thing, every day, and not deviate.  So you can save lots of money by using the less expensive tray type.

Thanks for the response and I'll definitely look more into turndown but could you I guess provide me specific example where variability is beneficial. To me, and this probably suits my personality, but consistency appeals to me. Especially in regards to creating a product that already has so many variables to try and reign in.

 

I just want to make sure that this additional control I get through bubble caps is even something I'd care to try and be controlling in the first place. I prefer pot still runs and the only reason I'm even getting a column is one for the copper benefits and two so it can bump up the % occasionally and make higher runs when I need it for blending with pure pot runs. But I'm definitely open to suggestion, as maybe caps will make more sense for me, and now's the time to make those decisions.

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The earliest reference that I can find for a plate column being called a flute was from 2010 in reference to Hillbilly Stills perf plate column called the hillbilly flute,  The first per plate columns were being used in the mid 19th century.

We tested both perf plate and bubble plate columns when we started.  Just like Silk said: bubble plates have a broader range of operation and more flexibility,  also in my opinion bubble plate columns are easier to run and  easier to balance.  This is why we don't sell perf plate columns. Please see the link below.  We also have discounts for first responders, current military and veterans.  Whether you buy from us or someone else, I think that a bubble plate column will work better for you. 

https://moonshine-still.co/t/moonshine-stills?page=2

 

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1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

The earliest reference that I can find for a plate column being called a flute was from 2010 in reference to Hillbilly Stills perf plate column called the hillbilly flute,  The first per plate columns were being used in the mid 19th century.

We tested both perf plate and bubble plate columns when we started.  Just like Silk said: bubble plates have a broader range of operation and more flexibility,  also in my opinion bubble plate columns are easier to run and  easier to balance.  This is why we don't sell perf plate columns. Please see the link below.  We also have discounts for first responders, current military and veterans.  Whether you buy from us or someone else, I think that a bubble plate column will work better for you. 

https://moonshine-still.co/t/moonshine-stills?page=2

 

Appreciate the response. Maybe I'm being obtuse but I still am not sure of what the real world example of what 'flexibility' is afforded by bubble caps. Do y'all just mean they can potentially be ran harder and maintain balance easier?

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22 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

Yes.

Gotcha, my biggest concern is retaining congeners while bumping up the % a bit....definitely not looking for neutral spirits.  I'd like to get it down to where I'm making single runs to finished product.  I've done a fair share of reading throughout the day and between the advice here and what I've read, bubble caps seems to be the way I should go.  Thanks for that!

 

@Southernhighlander I had linked one of your products above actually, not sure if you saw.  These seem to be the same product on two different sites with two different prices -

 

https://shop.distillery-equipment.com/collections/stills/products/26-gal-moonshine-vodka-4-bubble-plate-copper-stainless-w-cooling-kit-2

https://moonshine-still.co/products/26-gallon-moonshine-still-with-4-copper-reflux-four-bubble-plate-column

 

Am I missing something?

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Other thing to consider, if you are really using it as a development still, it should very closely approximate your production hardware.  Bubble caps vary by manufacturer, but most manufacturers use somewhat consistent sizing/ratios across their product line, which means the smaller stills will be more representative of the larger stills within reason.

Now, if your end goal is straight pot still, why bother with trays at all.  If you want cleaner product to blend, just redistill it at a higher proof.  Doing a separate strip and spirit run is going to come pretty close to a single pass through a 3 plate column.

 

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1 minute ago, Silk City Distillers said:

Other thing to consider, if you are really using it as a development still, it should very closely approximate your production hardware.  Bubble caps vary by manufacturer, but most manufacturers use somewhat consistent sizing/ratios across their product line, which means the smaller stills will be more representative of the larger stills within reason.

Now, if your end goal is straight pot still, why bother with trays at all.  If you want cleaner product to blend, just redistill it at a higher proof.  Doing a separate strip and spirit run is going to come pretty close to a single pass through a 3 plate column.

 

Yeah I had alluded to this above.  At the end of the day I want the process to be able to scale from what I learn on, within reason.

 

I want to first get down running a pot still...then progress into running the 4-plate column (thus my desire for modular system).  I'd rather learn to strike a balance between the pot and the plates for my product than doing a single pot still run followed by column run and blending or, as you mentioned, redistilling period.  Once again, this comes more down to consistency than anything and eliminating variables....but also efficiency.

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As a matter of fact this is the exact reason I'm not really paying much attention to the various eye candy glass column with copper plate options.  One, because I want the additional copper but two because I haven't seen any large systems (250 gallon and up) utilize this design.  I'm sure there are various reasons why.

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25 minutes ago, Blue Bolt said:

Gotcha, my biggest concern is retaining congeners while bumping up the % a bit....definitely not looking for neutral spirits.  I'd like to get it down to where I'm making single runs to finished product.  I've done a fair share of reading throughout the day and between the advice here and what I've read, bubble caps seems to be the way I should go.  Thanks for that!

 

@Southernhighlander I had linked one of your products above actually, not sure if you saw.  These seem to be the same product on two different sites with two different prices -

 

https://shop.distillery-equipment.com/collections/stills/products/26-gal-moonshine-vodka-4-bubble-plate-copper-stainless-w-cooling-kit-2

https://moonshine-still.co/products/26-gallon-moonshine-still-with-4-copper-reflux-four-bubble-plate-column

 

Am I missing something?

I'm not sure what's going on there.  They do appear to be the same stills.  I will have to talk to my employees about it.    Thanks for pointing that out. 

The still in the links is a great R&D still that will produce similarly to our Pro Whiskey stills.  If you purchase a more complex larger still, then I can sell you the modular components needed for the R&D still to mimic your larger still.   Being able to remove the plates and run these 4" bubble plate columns as pot stills or with different numbers of plates adds a great deal of versatility.   We also have jacketed baine marie combination mash tun stills in this size.  These baine maries can also be ran as steam stills so they will more closely mimic a larger steam or Baine Marie still.  Being able to cook corn mash in them is a real benefit as well, however they are a lot more expensive.  The agitator increases the price by around $1800.00 including the VFD.  These are geared agitators with explosion proof Baldor motors.

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8 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

I'm not sure what's going on there.  They do appear to be the same stills.  I will have to talk to my employees about it.    Thanks for pointing that out. 

The still in the links is a great R&D still that will produce similarly to our Pro Whiskey stills.  If you purchase a more complex larger still, then I can sell you the modular components needed for the R&D still to mimic your larger still.   Being able to remove the plates and run these 4" bubble plate columns as pot stills or with different numbers of plates adds a great deal of versatility.   We also have jacketed baine marie combination mash tun stills in this size.  These baine maries can also be ran as steam stills so they will more closely mimic a larger steam or Baine Marie still.  Being able to cook corn mash in them is a real benefit as well, however they are a lot more expensive.  The agitator increases the price by around $1800.00 including the VFD.  These are geared agitators with explosion proof Baldor motors.

No worries, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something silly.  As far as mimicking the components closely for this R&D still....I'm hoping the one I linked above will approximate pretty well.  That's essentially the amount of money I'm budgeting right now.  Agitators and jackets would definitely be nice but considering I look to move past this one within about a year, I don't want to invest a ton.  But if you have specific ideas on this that point towards a different still than what we've been linking too, I'd be a fool not to listen.

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8 hours ago, Blue Bolt said:

No worries, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something silly.  As far as mimicking the components closely for this R&D still....I'm hoping the one I linked above will approximate pretty well.  That's essentially the amount of money I'm budgeting right now.  Agitators and jackets would definitely be nice but considering I look to move past this one within about a year, I don't want to invest a ton.  But if you have specific ideas on this that point towards a different still than what we've been linking too, I'd be a fool not to listen.

You should go with the 26 gallon single wall with the 4 plate if it fits your budget better.  If you ever want to trade it in on something larger, I will give you a good trade in price for it.

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Because of their sensitivity, perf plates are very hard to stabilize if you decide to use more of them: as a larger stack they can get into oscillatory behavior where the higher pool depth and boil intensity will move up and down the column.

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5 minutes ago, bluestar said:

Because of their sensitivity, perf plates are very hard to stabilize if you decide to use more of them: as a larger stack they can get into oscillatory behavior where the higher pool depth and boil intensity will move up and down the column.

Thanks. I'm definitely team bubble cap now. I'm sold. Spent the better part of 4 hours yesterday looking into it.

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Good call on the caps over the perf plates!  Also, for those having any issues with our website, we are currently under a full site remodel.  If you have any issues or questions, please reach out to us directly.  Cheers!

Chris

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"I'd like to get it down to where I'm making single runs to finished product."

 

I tried that too. I make stripping runs now. I have a 52 gal, 6" ,4 plate mile hi still. I am currently looking to build a 150 gallon stripping still and use the 52 just for spirit runs.

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13 minutes ago, Black Creek said:

"I'd like to get it down to where I'm making single runs to finished product."

 

I tried that too. I make stripping runs now. I have a 52 gal, 6" ,4 plate mile hi still. I am currently looking to build a 150 gallon stripping still and use the 52 just for spirit runs.

I hear low and slow can get it done for some. We will see. Seems like I see several people have success with single runs and rum more than other spirits but that may be confirmation bias at play.

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@Silk City Distillers At this point I'm sold on the bubble caps and will move forward that way.  Of course, now comes in the question of glass columns instead of copper.  I know you already utilize a Crystal SteelDragon.  Have you found that just the copper in the plates is enough to eliminate your sulfides?  I know for bourbon you're going to age it in a barrel anyways so you don't have to worry as much about sulfur notes but for rum that isn't always the case.  

Essentially I'm now trying to deduce whether I'm gonna go for a stainless kettle with glass column and 4 bubble cap plates or stainless kettle with modular copper column and 4 bubble cap plates.

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Bout made up my mind on a 4" glass Still dragon with the ProCaps...still a little concerned with sulfate removal with the only copper being the plates and caps but I guess we'll see. Trying to think of a way to add a little copper before it gets to the plates. Might be a waste of money. Not sure, any opinions on that would be great.

 

Stilldragon has some nice 30 gallon pot belly kettles but they want $2300 for the kettle and the fittings. Can't justify that. They don't sell a 26 milk can and I think a 13 gallon will be inconsistent pushing a 4" column. Probably will look towards Affordable Distilling or Hillbilly for the can and electric heating.

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On 6/24/2019 at 5:22 AM, Silk City Distillers said:

Perf plates are less flexible than bubble caps.  There is a concept called turndown, it’s the range of operating conditions the tray can support without flooding or dumping.  Bubble caps have a significantly wider turndown range than perforated.  What’s that mean to you?  It’s more flexible.  It’ll run faster or slower and with more or less reflux.  It's better, on every single measure possible (except maybe price).  Would think, that for a development still, experimental still, you want the widest potential set of options to utilize.  Modular, bubble cap.

...

I hate to tweak Silk's excellent contribution, but there are a couple advantages to "dual flow"/sieve (perf) plates over bubble caps, in some applications.

Perf plates don't easily foul (given adequate hole size for the media) , so they can (must) be used in a stripping column for grist-in.  Perf plates have lower pressure drop, making the product separation a bit more efficient.  Somewhat higher efficiency (closer to a theoretical plate) - *IF* operated in a tight range of vapor flow - which is practically impossible for a non-continuous still.

OTOH sources claim a 1.5:1 type turn-down ratio for a perf plate, vs a ~2.5:1 turndown for a bubble plate.  Floating valve plates have a huge turn-down, up to ~8:1!!!, but more pressure drop, cost & fouling are worse.  I've never seen small scale valve plates.

==

Yes, given your application bubble-plates are the obvious choice - for any small scale non-continuous rectification.

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I started with a 13 gallon 4 plate column. Had zero problems pushing it.

 

i did eventually add an element for 9kw total and it was nice to have the extra power. 

 

Since then I’ve upgraded quite a bit and use SD Procaps which are incredible in their ability to go super slow or super fast. 

 

I am am a fan of using the 4”x4” stainless spools as plate lifts. I just don’t need a bunch of windows.  Really just want them at critical points. 

 

As to copper and sulfides. I’m not convinced it’s as important as some make it out to be. If your copper ain’t black at the end of a run, then you don’t have a sulfide issue. 

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3 hours ago, Blue Bolt said:

Bout made up my mind on a 4" glass Still dragon with the ProCaps...still a little concerned with sulfate removal with the only copper being the plates and caps but I guess we'll see. Trying to think of a way to add a little copper before it gets to the plates. Might be a waste of money. Not sure, any opinions on that would be great.

 

Stilldragon has some nice 30 gallon pot belly kettles but they want $2300 for the kettle and the fittings. Can't justify that. They don't sell a 26 milk can and I think a 13 gallon will be inconsistent pushing a 4" column. Probably will look towards Affordable Distilling or Hillbilly for the can and electric heating.

I *suspect* the copper plates & caps will do the job. wrt copper.

If you went to stainless you could electro-plate a copper layer in the interior - not hard to do.  [for those who might care to pick fights, the rectification fluids & vapor are not electrolytic, and the joint is not exposed], but frankly the glass column is likely to be educational.   

I recently heard the Beam uses a stainless column but adds copper pipe stacked within the column at some unspecified plate.  I can't attest to the accuracy.  Odd but plausible.

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