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20-30 Gallon Development Flute Stills


Blue Bolt

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22 minutes ago, stevea said:

I *suspect* the copper plates & caps will do the job. wrt copper.

If you went to stainless you could electro-plate a copper layer in the interior - not hard to do.  [for those who might care to pick fights, the rectification fluids & vapor are not electrolytic, and the joint is not exposed], but frankly the glass column is likely to be educational.   

I recently heard the Beam uses a stainless column but adds copper pipe stacked within the column at some unspecified plate.  I can't attest to the accuracy.  Odd but plausible.

I had come across this study yesterday and it seems a copper condenser might be the best place for additional copper as well.  Earlier above I said adding copper before the plates like in the kettle but I had forgot about that article.  I guess I could always move forward with the glass and copper plates/caps and if I'm not happy with the sulfer level I could look into having a copper condenser made.

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1 hour ago, FijiSpirits said:

I started with a 13 gallon 4 plate column. Had zero problems pushing it.

 

i did eventually add an element for 9kw total and it was nice to have the extra power. 

 

Since then I’ve upgraded quite a bit and use SD Procaps which are incredible in their ability to go super slow or super fast. 

 

I am am a fan of using the 4”x4” stainless spools as plate lifts. I just don’t need a bunch of windows.  Really just want them at critical points. 

 

As to copper and sulfides. I’m not convinced it’s as important as some make it out to be. If your copper ain’t black at the end of a run, then you don’t have a sulfide issue. 

Thanks for the info!  My current thinking is to look into a copper condenser if I can't shake the notion of sulfur.

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On 6/25/2019 at 5:03 PM, Blue Bolt said:

@Silk City Distillers At this point I'm sold on the bubble caps and will move forward that way.  Of course, now comes in the question of glass columns instead of copper.  I know you already utilize a Crystal SteelDragon.  Have you found that just the copper in the plates is enough to eliminate your sulfides?  I know for bourbon you're going to age it in a barrel anyways so you don't have to worry as much about sulfur notes but for rum that isn't always the case.  

Essentially I'm now trying to deduce whether I'm gonna go for a stainless kettle with glass column and 4 bubble cap plates or stainless kettle with modular copper column and 4 bubble cap plates.

Bluebolt,  our stills have copper defuser plate assemblies that maximize your copper vapor interaction (among other things).  I came up with the design 7 years ago.  Just one of my defuser plate assemblies guarantees 100% copper vapor interaction.  Most of our stills have at least 2 defuser plate assemblies.  We have glass bubble plate columns and we have the 26 gallon pots as well as 40 gallon pot belly pots.  Our 40s cost less than our competitors 30 gallon pots.  

I had to have an emergency surgery yesterday.  It will be 2 to 3 weeks before they will let me work in my office.  However, I have 5 office staff so everything will be running smoothly as always.  I have not been able to answer my emails since the surgery but I will be working from my bed on my lap top starting tomorrow.  

If you would like to talk about your needs, give me a call at my home number tomorrow 417-778-6100.  Or if you would just like to order call 417-778-6100 and ask for Susan. Here is Susan's email address: susan@distillery-equipment.com  

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1 hour ago, Southernhighlander said:

Bluebolt,  our stills have copper defuser plate assemblies that maximize your copper vapor interaction (among other things).  I came up with the design 7 years ago.  Just one of my defuser plate assemblies guarantees 100% copper vapor interaction.  Most of our stills have at least 2 defuser plate assemblies.  We have glass bubble plate columns and we have the 26 gallon pots as well as 40 gallon pot belly pots.  Our 40s cost less than our competitors 30 gallon pots.  

I had to have an emergency surgery yesterday.  It will be 2 to 3 weeks before they will let me work in my office.  However, I have 5 office staff so everything will be running smoothly as always.  I have not been able to answer my emails since the surgery but I will be working from my bed on my lap top starting tomorrow.  

If you would like to talk about your needs, give me a call at my home number tomorrow 417-778-6100.  Or if you would just like to order call 417-778-6100 and ask for Susan. Here is Susan's email address: susan@distillery-equipment.com  

Thanks for reaching out but focus on getting better man. I work in healthcare so I tell patients 8x a day to not be afraid to admit to yourself you deserve a break.

 

I will reach out tomorrow cause y'all got everything I need and you've been on top of it since Day 1.

 

Get better.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Blue Bolt said:

Thanks for reaching out but focus on getting better man. I work in healthcare so I tell patients 8x a day to not be afraid to admit to yourself you deserve a break.

 

I will reach out tomorrow cause y'all got everything I need and you've been on top of it since Day 1.

 

Get better.

 

 

Blue Bolt,

Thank you for the concern and good wishes.  I can't currently walk or sit upright and I would be in a lot of pain if not for all of the Oxy and other stuff they have me on. 

My Doc says as long as I lay on my back or side, I can use my laptop and phone.  I enjoy what I do so it is a positive.

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Quick question, I generally was operating under the assumption I wanted a 26 gallon milk can considering it was the largest 'hobby' product readily available. But as I've been considering my true needs a little more thoroughly I may be wrong.

 

In this still I will immediately be testing various yeasts for my rum wash in 5 gallon buckets...it seems like a 13 gallon may make more sense. Correct thinking?

 

I don't want to make three 5 gallon buckets for a 26 gallon boiler for every separate yeast run.

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1 hour ago, FijiSpirits said:

Bluebolt I should correct my previous statement. I had a 13 gallon boiler not a 26 gallon. It was perfect for the 5 gallon bucket ferments. 

 

I will say that scaling recipies from 5 gallon was a bit of a thing.  

Yeah. Well I'm trying to develop what flavor profile I'm going for...it seems like a waste of energy and money up make 15 gallons of wash everytime. I'd rather have about four 5 gallon buckets fermenting every week/two and do two runs a day on Saturday and Sunday. Seems smarter space, time and resource wise. 

 

5 gallon wash enough to run a 13 gallon boiler/4" column or should I just bite the bullet and get 10 gallon buckets?

 

EDIT: Nevermind started using my head and realized I'm gonna use an element and 5 gallon wash in a 13 gallon can would leave the element dangerously close to be exposed, correct.  Looks like either way I'm gonna need to run 10 gallon washes and at that point.  Now that brings to the question would 10 gallons be sufficient for a 26 gallon kettle.  These will be rum washes so foam is to be potentially expected.

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44 minutes ago, Blue Bolt said:

Yeah. Well I'm trying to develop what flavor profile I'm going for...it seems like a waste of energy and money up make 15 gallons of wash everytime. I'd rather have about four 5 gallon buckets fermenting every week/two and do two runs a day on Saturday and Sunday. Seems smarter space, time and resource wise. 

 

5 gallon wash enough to run a 13 gallon boiler/4" column or should I just bite the bullet and get 10 gallon buckets?

 

EDIT: Nevermind started using my head and realized I'm gonna use an element and 5 gallon wash in a 13 gallon can would leave the element dangerously close to be exposed quickly.  Looks like either way I'm gonna need to run 10 gallon washes and at that point.  Now that brings to the question would 10 gallons be sufficient for a 26 gallon kettle.

The 13 gal milk can is used all over the world with an immersion element.  As long as you do your due diligence on the kettle charge, and keep an eye on the process, you'll be just fine.  That being said, people have dry fired elements in all shapes and sizes of kettles.  99.9% of the time it is operator error!

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42 minutes ago, ChrisSD said:

The 13 gal milk can is used all over the world with an immersion element.  As long as you do your due diligence on the kettle charge, and keep an eye on the process, you'll be just fine.  That being said, people have dry fired elements in all shapes and sizes of kettles.  99.9% of the time it is operator error!

For sure, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with the capacity at this point and it's ability to work with a 4" column.  I'm speaking specifically of just using 5 gallon washes inside.  Heated from the bottom, sure no problem but I don't have a can in front of me and thus don't know if 5 gallons of wash will sufficiently cover the element or should I just count on 10 gallons.  The reason I'm asking and trying to deduce rigidly in multiples of 5 is because frankly I've got quiet a few 5 gallons buckets.  I realize there are other size options out there.

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17 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

Bluebolt,  our stills have copper defuser plate assemblies that maximize your copper vapor interaction (among other things).  I came up with the design 7 years ago.  Just one of my defuser plate assemblies guarantees 100% copper vapor interaction.  Most of our stills have at least 2 defuser plate assemblies.  We have glass bubble plate columns and we have the 26 gallon pots as well as 40 gallon pot belly pots.  Our 40s cost less than our competitors 30 gallon pots.  

I had to have an emergency surgery yesterday.  It will be 2 to 3 weeks before they will let me work in my office.  However, I have 5 office staff so everything will be running smoothly as always.  I have not been able to answer my emails since the surgery but I will be working from my bed on my lap top starting tomorrow.  

If you would like to talk about your needs, give me a call at my home number tomorrow 417-778-6100.  Or if you would just like to order call 417-778-6100 and ask for Susan. Here is Susan's email address: susan@distillery-equipment.com  

Get well soon, man! Healin' thoughts to ya!

 

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On 6/26/2019 at 5:16 PM, Blue Bolt said:

I had come across this study yesterday and it seems a copper condenser might be the best place for additional copper as well.  Earlier above I said adding copper before the plates like in the kettle but I had forgot about that article.  I guess I could always move forward with the glass and copper plates/caps and if I'm not happy with the sulfer level I could look into having a copper condenser made.

I've see that study before, and it's a bit hard to interpret WHY copper in the wash condenser and the spirit pot have the most impact.  The latter part of pg 110 says ...

<< When used for the first time, the laboratory scale copper stills produced a spirit with a relatively sulphury and meaty aroma. Several repeat distillations were required prior to the start of this experiment to reduce this aroma suggesting that some corrosion of the copper may have been required in order to activate it. The actual mechanism of sulphur compound removal, however, remains to be elucidated.>>

Copper has two oxidation states, and I might *suspect* Copper(I) oxide (Cu2.O) is the more likely hero of the story, can't say.   An acid cleaning would eliminate the Cu2O and perhaps make the still ineffective of sulfur removal.

The paper blames Dimethyl trisulfide (DMTS) as the main problem.  This chem is detectable & obnoxious  at parts per trillion!  It's not very volatile, but a little goes a long way.  Dimthyl Sulfide & sulfoxide are also present in large amounts, but are less problematic.  There is an old winemaking trick of adding copper or a little copper sulfate to get rid of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in wine. Copper sulfate can (w/ free chloride ions) remove DMSO.  I wonder if copper sulfate in the wash might eliminate the DMTS or precursors.

 

===

Do get well soon Paul.   I'm not your biggest fan, but I've been through the surgery/pain-killer thing myself and wish it on no-one.

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While copper is absolutely necessary in the distilling process, build up of copper salts in copper condenser tubes can be a health issue for your customers.   A white spirit with a blue tint is a strong indication of copper salts in the spirit.  If you are running copper condenser tubes or a copper coil, you need to clean them regularly and thoroughly.  Do not allow copper salt build up in those tubes.

Copper salts on the upside of the vapor path cannot climb the column with the vapor so there is where you want to maximize your copper vapor interaction.  Our primary diffuser plate assemblies are on the upside of the vapor path.  Our secondary diffuser plate assemblies are on the downside of the vapor path, however they are easily cleaned and are generally a great deal smaller than the primary diffuser plate assemblies. 

Concerning stills for distilleries, all of our standard components for the down side of the vapor path are stainless steel except for the diffuser plate assemblies.  For our equipment in distilleries we  only build copper condensers upon request. 

Its funny how things change.  My dad never sold a still that didn't have a copper condenser.

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21 hours ago, Blue Bolt said:

For sure, I don't think there is anything wrong at all with the capacity at this point and it's ability to work with a 4" column.  I'm speaking specifically of just using 5 gallon washes inside.  Heated from the bottom, sure no problem but I don't have a can in front of me and thus don't know if 5 gallons of wash will sufficiently cover the element or should I just count on 10 gallons.  The reason I'm asking and trying to deduce rigidly in multiples of 5 is because frankly I've got quiet a few 5 gallons buckets.  I realize there are other size options out there.

It covers fine. A single 20l bucket will have maybe 1.5-3l come off in total volume during distillation.  That leaves (realistically) like  3 gallons to cover the element which is typically about 3” off the bottom or less. I’ve done it dozens of times without issue.  IIRC all you can fit in a 13gallon reasonably is around 11 gallons, so 5 gallons is almost half full  

 

If you are really worried about it you can always add some water to the wash during distillation. 

 

Two things tho that’ll make your life easier at this scale. 

1- using 6 gallon or larger buckets makes life easier. 

2- use ultra low watt density elements. It reduces foaming caused by cavitation during boiling significantly. 

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3 hours ago, FijiSpirits said:

It covers fine. A single 20l bucket will have maybe 1.5-3l come off in total volume during distillation.  That leaves (realistically) like  3 gallons to cover the element which is typically about 3” off the bottom or less. I’ve done it dozens of times without issue.  IIRC all you can fit in a 13gallon reasonably is around 11 gallons, so 5 gallons is almost half full  

 

If you are really worried about it you can always add some water to the wash during distillation. 

 

Two things tho that’ll make your life easier at this scale. 

1- using 6 gallon or larger buckets makes life easier. 

2- use ultra low watt density elements. It reduces foaming caused by cavitation during boiling significantly. 

Our heating systems come with UL listed ultra low watt density elements.  You can run 5 gallons of wash in our 13 gallon with no issues.

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13 hours ago, stevea said:

I've see that study before, and it's a bit hard to interpret WHY copper in the wash condenser and the spirit pot have the most impact.  The latter part of pg 110 says ...

<< When used for the first time, the laboratory scale copper stills produced a spirit with a relatively sulphury and meaty aroma. Several repeat distillations were required prior to the start of this experiment to reduce this aroma suggesting that some corrosion of the copper may have been required in order to activate it. The actual mechanism of sulphur compound removal, however, remains to be elucidated.>>

Copper has two oxidation states, and I might *suspect* Copper(I) oxide (Cu2.O) is the more likely hero of the story, can't say.   An acid cleaning would eliminate the Cu2O and perhaps make the still ineffective of sulfur removal.

The paper blames Dimethyl trisulfide (DMTS) as the main problem.  This chem is detectable & obnoxious  at parts per trillion!  It's not very volatile, but a little goes a long way.  Dimthyl Sulfide & sulfoxide are also present in large amounts, but are less problematic.  There is an old winemaking trick of adding copper or a little copper sulfate to get rid of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in wine. Copper sulfate can (w/ free chloride ions) remove DMSO.  I wonder if copper sulfate in the wash might eliminate the DMTS or precursors.

 

===

Do get well soon Paul.   I'm not your biggest fan, but I've been through the surgery/pain-killer thing myself and wish it on no-one.

Some good info to remember there about copper sulfate.  As of right now, it's unknowable until I start fermenting and distilling as there is just a ton of variables that dictate this between the two processes and whether or not you have to worry about sulfer.  I'll ferment and distill towards the product I think I want and can always adjust methods afterwards if sulfur seems to be an issue.  It seems like something that can be addressed in various ways as things go but I like to try and be preemptive.

 

4 hours ago, Southernhighlander said:

While copper is absolutely necessary in the distilling process, build up of copper salts in copper condenser tubes can be a health issue for your customers.   A white spirit with a blue tint is a strong indication of copper salts in the spirit.  If you are running copper condenser tubes or a copper coil, you need to clean them regularly and thoroughly.  Do not allow copper salt build up in those tubes.

Copper salts on the upside of the vapor path cannot climb the column with the vapor so there is where you want to maximize your copper vapor interaction.  Our primary diffuser plate assemblies are on the upside of the vapor path.  Our secondary diffuser plate assemblies are on the downside of the vapor path, however they are easily cleaned and are generally a great deal smaller than the primary diffuser plate assemblies. 

Concerning stills for distilleries, all of our standard components for the down side of the vapor path are stainless steel except for the diffuser plate assemblies.  For our equipment in distilleries we  only build copper condensers upon request. 

Its funny how things change.  My dad never sold a still that didn't have a copper condenser.

Good to know stuff right there about the salts.  Had no clue. I'm going to run with the glass and bubble plates and adjust from there if need be. I believe the bubble plates will suffice but it seems there are various points during the distillation (and before during the fermenting even) to address things if I can't get them under control...as mentioned above.

 

3 hours ago, FijiSpirits said:

It covers fine. A single 20l bucket will have maybe 1.5-3l come off in total volume during distillation.  That leaves (realistically) like  3 gallons to cover the element which is typically about 3” off the bottom or less. I’ve done it dozens of times without issue.  IIRC all you can fit in a 13gallon reasonably is around 11 gallons, so 5 gallons is almost half full  

 

If you are really worried about it you can always add some water to the wash during distillation. 

 

Two things tho that’ll make your life easier at this scale. 

1- using 6 gallon or larger buckets makes life easier. 

2- use ultra low watt density elements. It reduces foaming caused by cavitation during boiling significantly. 

 

9 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

Our heating systems come with UL listed ultra low watt density elements.  You can run 5 gallons of wash in our 13 gallon with no issues.

I really appreciate both of y'all sitting down and taking the time to answer these questions.  I know they are simple as hell and maybe seem a little helpless but it's unfortunately the kind of thing you just can't really know without having it down in front of you.  I'm going to take the advice too and just bite the bullet and just start out with some fresh 8 gallons buckets.  I'm sure I can find some other uses for my 5 gallon'ers.

 

 

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On 6/28/2019 at 2:52 AM, stevea said:

Do get well soon Paul.   I'm not your biggest fan, but I've been through the surgery/pain-killer thing myself and wish it on no-one.

I can't wait till these two put their differences aside, and become BFFs.😄

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2 hours ago, adamOVD said:

I can't wait till these two put their differences aside, and become BFFs.😄

I'm not sure how big an issue you have to have someone to preface a "get well" with a "but I still don't like you" but obviously this is based on something long standing before I was lurking.

 

BTW @adamOVD how you like that heeler. I have one myself...great dog. I have a little familiarity with Bishop, CA. Hitchhiked out of the woods there about 10 years ago after a week in and around Yosemite. Good times.

 

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My BFF is my 31 Ford.  She never gives me any shit and when I want her to get down the road she does.  She may be pushing 90 but she'll still do 130 with a load of whiskey.  Well maybe not a load of whiskey but 2 big fat hillbillies, all of their beer and a chihweiner dog is a good approximation.

  I'm gonna have to quite hanging out with those guys, grow me a long beard and find me a beautician to drive me around in that thing.  Anybody know any beauticians that are built like 1940s pinups  that smoke lucky strikes?  Yeehaw!!! 

Maybe when I get to feeling better.

paul and the 31 ford.jpg

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2 hours ago, Blue Bolt said:

Nice model A! I'm sure there are some rockabilly chicks out in Missouri lookin' for a ride...

I was just kidding around about the beautician.  I've been with my wife for 31 years which is long enough to know that my idea of a chauffer wouldn't fly with her. Oh well.

Talking about smaller stills.  We ran an 8 gallon prototype of our new vacuum reclamation still design last week that is reclaiming 80 gallons of 190 proof per 10hr day.

  It is fired by a 50 gallon residential hot water heater.  The still has no ignition sources anywhere on or around it.  The 800 gallon version will reclaim 8,000 gallons per day.  This is our fastest design yet.  If you have any interest in a small to really large systemsfor producing CBD just let me know. 

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53 minutes ago, Southernhighlander said:

I was just kidding around about the beautician.  I've been with my wife for 31 years which is long enough to know that my idea of a chauffer wouldn't fly with her. Oh well.

Talking about smaller stills.  We ran an 8 gallon prototype of our new vacuum reclamation still design last week that is reclaiming 80 gallons of 190 proof per 10hr day.

  It is fired by a 50 gallon residential hot water heater.  The still has no ignition sources anywhere on or around it.  The 800 gallon version will reclaim 8,000 gallons per day.  This is our fastest design yet.  If you have any interest in a small to really large systemsfor producing CBD just let me know. 

Brother, I tried calling you several times last week with no luck.  Seems like when I’m workin you ain’t!  Time differences are a thing when I’m working in Fiji. Lol

 

hope to see you up and around soon. I’m keen to learn about your continuous systems, steam generators and maybe that vacuum system your talking about. 

 

Ill warn you that a strong USD and bank theft are real serious factors for us but nothing that can’t be overcome with some creative thinking.  I’m a Montana transplant so I prefer to stick with ‘murrican sources when it’s doable. 

 

what's the best way to catch you these days?

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