Building/Planning Dept Meeting

[38°]

Hi All -

We're in the planning phase of our distillery project which would be the first in our County. The head of the planning department and head of the building department have requested a meeting next week to discuss the project and our preferred building and location.

Thus far, they've made a zoning determination based based on prior determinations for a brewery. All they know is it will be a craft distillery with a tasting room.

Our advisor has given some sage advice, but, I really would love to hear what anyone else might have experienced.

What should we come prepared to discuss? Anyone out there have experience similar? How should we approach the meeting?

Thank you for anything you can offer. 

[Thatch]

2 hours ago, 38° said:

The head of the planning department and head of the building department have requested a meeting next week to discuss the project and our preferred building and location.

If you search on the letters AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdication) on this forum you will find a significant amount of discussion on what they might want to talk about.  The other guy that you would want in a second meeting if the planning commission and the building inspector give you positive vibes is the Fire Marshall.

[Glenlyon]

When we were going through a similar process we wound up agreeing to all kinds of things way too early. Keep good notes, nod knowingly and don't agree to any conditions up front. If you have to go through a re-zoning process anyway - you want to make sure you have negotiating room and things to trade later  for when all those previously keen neighbours suddenly turn against you. 

[stevea]

I've been down this path with a couple properties.  Part of zoning is about what the authority wants to allow for the community, and so a microbrewery model is good starting point.  The extra safety/fire code issues are the main difference.  DON'T offer extra information nor open new topics, but be prepared to address objections with information.   Be prepared to give a high level non-technical  glossy overview, then let them drive.

Some topics/objection you should be ready to address:

How do you plan to dispose of solid waste ? What is your sewerage waste like (BOD, quantities , temperatures) ?   If you mill 'process' or 'crush' grain on-site then the dust can be explosive fire code applies. [argue similar to brewery]

How much high proof alcohol and at what proof will you have on premises ?  There is a difference in the code for 'process' vs 'storage' tanks, so your receivers & mixing tanks, bottling tank are 'process'.   Storage tanks & Barrels are 'storage' and wooden barrels have a special status that exempts them from NFPA fire code but not building code.  My county is quite prickly about "above ground storage & process" 25ft set-off from property boundaries unless you have exceptional fire-walls.   If you are going to store more than a few barrels-worth you'll run into MAQ(maximum allowable quantity) restrictions that will push you to fire containment areas, sprinklers and perhaps an expensive H-3 classification.   Vertical stacking of non-exempt storage like pallets of filled bottles, might be a trigger issue.  Still over-pressure venting & barrel storage ventilation reqs might be discussed. So be prepared to describ theTalk to your architect/code-guy before hand,  AND let them field the code compliance questions.

With  a tasting room and you could see questions related to local/state code, serving reqs, and proximity to churches, schools, community or rehab centers.

It's not really part of the zoning agenda, but you'll want to note the value to the community, economic activity; drawing customers to the area, possible providing some jobs.

Observe the 'vibe' of the proceedings.   You will get hard questions, but if you come away with the clear impression that they don't want a distillery then it's best to find another location.   They can run your biz into the ground with enforcement issues.

 

 

[38°]

This is very helpful, thank you for the guidance. As of early discussions we have the support of the Fire Chief (as long as we do what is required by code he is happy,  and seems thrilled to have us in the neighborhood, literally 1 block away) as well as our County Supervisor.

Based on guidance so far I plan on outlining the business at a high level and highlighting the tasting room aspect and being clear our production is small scale. I also plan to speak to the value to our depressed small town and bringing folks to the area. Head of Economic Development will be in the meeting too.

We wont be dealing with grain and the still will be electric. We will have some barrel storage as well as bottle and in process product.

Searching and researching MAQ and AHJ now.

[bluestar]

32 minutes ago, Thatch said:

If you search on the letters AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdication) on this forum you will find a significant amount of discussion on what they might want to talk about.  The other guy that you would want in a second meeting if the planning commission and the building inspector give you positive vibes is the Fire Marshall.

So whole heartedly agree. The Fire Marshall is usually the real make-or-break, but is the toughest, since if they are not already educated on distilleries, you are more likely educating them rather than them providing guidance to you at this stage. Nevertheless, better to deal with this early on, because the Fire Marshall can throw the wrench into the works AT ANY POINT in setting up your distillery. You can even go through full construction and inspection and approval to start operation, and if the FM returns and determines something does not satisfy their fire safety requirements, you are shut down. There is generally no appeal.

[38°]

Thank you. I will get some time with the Fire Chief next week as well hopefully. The main battalion is one block away so hopefully that is a good thing. Initially he seemed most interested if we would have healthy food as there are limited options for dining in the area!

18 minutes ago, bluestar said:

So whole heartedly agree. The Fire Marshall is usually the real make-or-break, but is the toughest, since if they are not already educated on distilleries, you are more likely educating them rather than them providing guidance to you at this stage. Nevertheless, better to deal with this early on, because the Fire Marshall can throw the wrench into the works AT ANY POINT in setting up your distillery. You can even go through full construction and inspection and approval to start operation, and if the FM returns and determines something does not satisfy their fire safety requirements, you are shut down. There is generally no appeal.

 

[stevea]

42 minutes ago, bluestar said:

...The Fire Marshall is usually the real make-or-break, but is the toughest, since if they are not already educated on distilleries, [...]

Depends on the community.   The FM in one local city was the long-pole [he dealt with other industrial flammable production].  In the next city over [also a lot of industrial flammables] FM said they only do compliance inspections and it's totally up to zoning/building.

 

[bluestar]

2 hours ago, stevea said:

Depends on the community.   The FM in one local city was the long-pole [he dealt with other industrial flammable production].  In the next city over [also a lot of industrial flammables] FM said they only do compliance inspections and it's totally up to zoning/building.

Sort of true. Any locality might have the FM limiting their scope. But state law usually gives the authority to the local FM to do more if they choose to, and bear responsibility if the required things are not done. And they can choose to exercise that authority later, and again, you are left in the lurch. So it is not even enough if the policy is supposedly fine now: that happened not long ago in the city of Chicago, when they realized after the first few distilleries were already in place that the FM were not sufficiently conservative with regards to local code. Effectively, rules changed on the fly. So, for example, in the case you suggest, if the FM leaves it to zoning/building, and they say its okay, and later during a compliance inspection the FM realizes that something is not being addressed (and that info can come from anywhere), they call you out of compliance, and require you to address the issue or shut down, do matter what zoning/building said. At least, in most states, that is how the authority is structured. Gee, you get that happening all the time anyway: two years in, FM does an inspection, says probably good idea you add another fire extinguisher here, alarm there. You gotta do it.

[Glenlyon]

Between the FM, chief electrician and planning department, they insisted we have a high hazard building designation. So that meant every electrical outlet was going to cost us a grand and look ugly to boot. Not so good for the look of the tasting room. And, they wanted everything drywalled up the wazoo, including covering our super cool and exceedingly expensive overhead massive timbers. After much wrangling we convinced them to allow us to create a 2 hour firewall between the distilling area and the tasting room, so that in the event of a fire, the patrons in the tasting room would have time time flee. Our tasting room is tiny. We could have a massive fire and still hang out in the tasting room talking about it. Eventually, everyone would saunter away.... Anyway that allowed us to trick out the tasting room normally and save the timbers. However, in the back, we weren't so lucky - we had to install the super expensive explosion proof outlets - so, predictably, we only installed a couple and they were very inconvenient to use. So now we have a bunch of extension cords. Dumb fucks. I pointed that out to the three players after words and they all just shrugged. At least I had met the requirements. 

[38°]

Circling back here - thank you everyone for the great advice. The meeting went wonderfully and everyone is excited about the project. Planning has already made some concessions. The Building Department essentially wants us to point them to the code for the various aspects of our operation and buildout, and if everything checks out they say they are good. He did state he thought is may be H3, which I am not so sure of. So, lot's of work to tell our story from here. Also, everyone pointed at the water district as our big roadblock, not fire. So, who knows.

[Thatch]

18 minutes ago, 38° said:

He did state he thought is may be H3

You might be able to be F-1.  Does the property have sprinklers?  How big will your still be?  How many gallons of spirits do you intend to store?  You will find reference to MAQ or maximum allowable quantity many places on this forum if you use those as search terms.  Barrels do count toward your MAQ.  

[38°]

No sprinklers.

We are looking at 150 - 200 gallon still.

Spirit storage, not sure but would try to do whatever it takes to remain below whatever limits we have to if financially beneficial.

[Thatch]

With no sprinklers you would be limited to 120 gallons in your DSP in excess of 16% ABV.  The exception to this is you could have as much as you want in bottles less than 1.3 gallons so long as what is in the bottles does not exceed 100 proof.  This would be for an F-1 occupancy.  You could not be an H occupancy without sprinklers.

c. The quantities of alcoholic beverages in retail and wholesale sales occupancies shall not be limited provided the liquids are packaged in individual containers not exceeding 1.3 gallons. In retail and wholesale sales occupancies, the quantities of medicines, foodstuffs or consumer products, and cosmetics containing not more than 50 percent by volume of water-miscible liquids with the remainder of the solutions not being flammable, shall not be limited, provided that such materials are packaged in individual containers not exceeding 1.3 gallons.

This is a code review that I previously posted to go from F-1 to H-3

 

This is a code review for a classification change from F-1 to H-3.  Although this references mostly Ohio Building Code the numbers should correspond directly to IBC and your local code.  

Preliminary Code Review to Convert Existing Malt House F-1/S-1 to H-3

Existing Building

Use Group H-3 - Distillery and spirit storage

Table 307.1(1) – Spirits at 50% alcohol or less is a 1C flammable liquid and requires an H-3 use group when the MAQ of 120 gal x 2 = 240 gal is in use or storage is exceeded.

OBC 414 – Hazardous Materials

414.1.3 – Report required to be submitted to AHJ describing max quantities and types of hazardous materials to be in-use or stored

414.3 Ventilation – Mechanical ventilation required. 1 CFM/SF continuous in areas or spaces where flammable vapors may be emitted due to processing, use, handling or storage. Make up air likely required.

414.5.1 – Explosion control is not required per OBC Table 414.5.1 – 1C not listed.

414.5.2 – Standby power may be required for the continuous ventilation. This would be exempt if the 1C flammable liquid is stored in containers not exceeding 6.5 gal.

IFC 2704.2.1 – Spill control needed if storage is in individual vessels of more than 55 gals. The barrels are smaller than 55 gal so no spill control needed.

IFC 2704.2.2 – Secondary containment is not required.

OBC – 415 Detailed requirements for H Groups

415.3 – Fire Alarm monitoring of sprinkler riser. Existing, complies.

415.4 – Automatic sprinkler. Design should be review for the change of use/occupancy.

415.5.1 – Emergency alarm. Local manual alarm outside of egress from a storage area is required.

415.6 – Greater than 25% of the perimeter wall is exterior wall, Complies.

415.6.1 – Group H minimum fire separation distance.

OBC Table 602 – Exterior wall fire-resistance rating based on fire separation distance. 26’ separation distance to the east and west property lines requires a 1 HR exterior wall rating for an H use group.

OBC CH 5 – Building area. Existing building area is 13,246SF is less than Table 506.2 14,000SF for a IIB, H-3. Complies without open perimeter or sprinkler area increases.

OBC 706 – Fire walls. A 2 HR rated fire wall exists between the 5B (combustible) B-use office and the 2B (non-combustible) F-1/S-1 to separate building construction type. Table 706.4 requires a 3 HR rated fire wall for an H-3 use group.

[38°]

This makes sense. Incredibly useful. How do folks store barrels in f1 if limited to 120 gallons?

[Thatch]

10 minutes ago, 38° said:

This makes sense. Incredibly useful. How do folks store barrels in f1 if limited to 120 gallons?

They don't unless the AHJ allows them to do so.  This would violate building code.  As you will read many times in this forum, it is up to the AHJ.  In your case he is already talking about H-3.  Even if he were to unknowingly allow you to violate the building code you might be in trouble when it comes to time to get insurance.  Companies that insure distilleries know the building and fire code and may be more strict than the AHJ

[38°]

So, for barrel storage you need to be h3? For instance, we have a tasting room, production floor, bottled product storage taxes paid space, and a large garage intended for barrel storage. All in one building but distinct spaces. I know our architect will code review for us, but I'm trying to point them in the right direction.

Thanks for all of the advice so far.

[Thatch]

1 hour ago, 38° said:

So, for barrel storage you need to be h3?

If you will store more than 240 gallons, then the answer is yes, you must be H occupancy.  There are ways to have up to 960 gallons in 4 separate control areas and still remain F-1 but that's another topic entirely.  Talk to your architect about making the garage you mention comply with H-3, the code review I posted should be helpful to him.  

[38°]

Thank you very much. 

[whiskeytango]

It all depends on your local authorities.  I know multiple distillery's that are F1 with barrel storage as well as over 270 of spirit.  Its hard to argue with them so be nice and work with them.  

 

[38°]

Agree whiskeytango. They're helpful folks and so far have been very supportive.