Mash smells

[sailorman9]

I was told that mash smelling like rotten eggs was a sign of a lack of nitrogen. When it happened I added Dap and the smell went away.

Yesterday my mash smelled kind of like vinegar and burned my eyes. I added Yeast Hulls and Fermaid K and the vinegar smell went away, but my eyes still burned.

I am distilling sugar and using tartaric, malic, and citric acid to lower the ph. I use Go-Ferm, when hydrating the yeast. I'm using bananas (black), wheat gluten, Dap, Fermaid K, and yeast hulls to help the fermentation along. Are there any other chemicals that I could try using?

Also: does anyone have a list of what smell goes with what problematic condition the mash is having?

Thank you,

Curt Naegeli

The North Woods Distillery LLC

135 W Main St.

635 Business 141 N #9

Coleman, WI 54112

920-897-5395

C. 920-819-6083

Taste the Spirits of the North Woods

[billowens]

Give me a call about you mashing techniques.

bill owens 510-886-7418

or email bill@distilling.com

[MadMacaw]

HI!

Please give me a call about your mashing issues. You are using some unusual practices, so I would like to get a better handle on your whole process to help with your efforts.

Eric Watson

Owner

AlBevCon (Alcohol Beverage Consulting)

Cell: 304.641.6166

LL: 505.820.0004 (use after 5 PM MST... where I live in New Mexico I am surrounded by big mountains.... hard to get cell service when not in town)

[Mike Fiore]

I would really be interest to know what Bill got to say about this. This looks like something that we would have had a field day when I was in winemaking school many years ago. Well, let me put my two cents in. The smell of rotten eggs is known to be H2S (hydrogen sulfide) its a bi-product of poor fermentation. If you had taken an analysis on it before the fermentation you would have seen that this product that you are trying to ferment is low in fermenting nitrogen. Dap will increase the fermenting nitrogen if used at the proper time. The best way to use it 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3. Go-Ferm helps the fermenting yeast into a good start, however, if you would have used ferment K to the recommended dose prior or at the same time of the innoculation you would have noticed less chance of H2S because ferment K also contains Dep in it. This is another reason why I like to use ferment K into 3 parts to achieve a smoother, steady fermentation all the way down to minus 2. The vinegar smell that you are picking-up is a pretty heavy dose of VA. On this subject we can talk for 2 days because there is approxiately a million things that could have gone wrong and give you that. That would be a great questions for Bill Owens, Bill would you distill that?

[Denver Distiller]

Sailorman said he's "fermenting sugar".

If (if) he's fermenting processed white sugar out of a sack, that's the main problem right there. Well, that, and he's adding everything but the kitchen sink into the liquid (hey, you asked).

What's the Plato, Brix, OG, whatever of the "mash", sailorman.

[sailorman9]

Sailorman said he's "fermenting sugar".

If (if) he's fermenting processed white sugar out of a sack, that's the main problem right there. Well, that, and he's adding everything but the kitchen sink into the liquid (hey, you asked).

What's the Plato, Brix, OG, whatever of the "mash", sailorman.

I'm trying to hit a SG of 1100, but doing it in steps. I started out with 1045 and then kept adding sugar to keep it there. I probably added enough sugar to hit SG 1065. I put 315 lbs sugar in 200 gal water.

When I did batches in 5 gallon buckets, it worked better. The main differences are the bucket had no mixer and the heat was around 74 degrees. Now I have a mixer and I heated the mash to 86 degrees. When the mash is rolling along the temp is 88 degrees.

[sailorman9]

I would really be interest to know what Bill got to say about this. This looks like something that we would have had a field day when I was in winemaking school many years ago. Well, let me put my two cents in. The smell of rotten eggs is known to be H2S (hydrogen sulfide) its a bi-product of poor fermentation. If you had taken an analysis on it before the fermentation you would have seen that this product that you are trying to ferment is low in fermenting nitrogen. Dap will increase the fermenting nitrogen if used at the proper time. The best way to use it 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3. Go-Ferm helps the fermenting yeast into a good start, however, if you would have used ferment K to the recommended dose prior or at the same time of the innoculation you would have noticed less chance of H2S because ferment K also contains Dep in it. This is another reason why I like to use ferment K into 3 parts to achieve a smoother, steady fermentation all the way down to minus 2. The vinegar smell that you are picking-up is a pretty heavy dose of VA. On this subject we can talk for 2 days because there is approxiately a million things that could have gone wrong and give you that. That would be a great questions for Bill Owens, Bill would you distill that?

The yeast didn't contact the Dap until the pitch. The manufacturer claims that Fermaid K should be added after the end of the lag phase and again at 1/3 sugar depletion, unless it's different for a all sugar mash. I've read that Dap is toxic to the yeast at rehydration.

Obviously the 200 grams of Dap was insufficient with the initial 200 lbs of sugar. What is VA?

Thanks,

Curt

[Mike Fiore]

Sailorman said he's "fermenting sugar".

If (if) he's fermenting processed white sugar out of a sack, that's the main problem right there. Well, that, and he's adding everything but the kitchen sink into the liquid (hey, you asked).

What's the Plato, Brix, OG, whatever of the "mash", sailorman.

I have no idea of what he is fermenting. My answer is what could have caused the problem he incountered and I thought that I answered as clear as I possibly could without talking in riddles. I do not know who the sailorman is and I personally do not care. I am a wine maker who knows fermentation and have encountered all fermentation problems that exist in the past 48 years in my profession so perhaps I thought I was helping this guy. my knowledge in distillation is very mimimum to be precise it starts and ends with brandies, grappa and various liquours but I am anxious to learn all you can teach me. cheers

[Denver Distiller]

I'll respectfully offer a few opinions....so take this for what its worth, as there's a million ways to accomplish your task.

1st, don't use white sugar. It's basically dead weight, flavorwise, and stresses the yeast as there's nothing there in terms of minerals or anything else, frankly, that will give you interesting flavors. As the very least, use cane syrup instead. Lots more nutrients, lots more going on. YMMV. This is a sticky wicket, as I know that many are using it for "rum" in the US, but it's about as low a road as you can travel. I support all of my fellow distillers, and support everything you want to make, but consider that there's a lot more characterful substrates out there. It just requires a bit of sourcing. Look to St. George.

2nd, don't add the sugar in stages. One and done. There's no good reason to add it in several steps. if you wish, add a kraeusen to mop up the last few degrees of sugar at the end of fermentation, but raising the sugar content after primary fermentation isn't good for the yeast. Give them a nice, steady, predictable environment.

3rd, don't mix a fermentation. Without getting overly dorky and scientific, it creates negative congeners. It's one of the big things that brought Schlitz down (not kidding). No need to stir a liquid fermentation.

4th, drop your temperature back down to where it was 1st.

5th, simplify your acidification regime. Pick one until you're comfortable, and then play around when you're getting clean fermentations.

6th, simplify your yeast nutrition. Put in a call to White Labs if you'd like. They can help you with one single source for yeast food that will get you where you need to go.

Be sure to oxygenate your yeast, as well as the mash.

Please remember I'm trying to help, so take this for what it's worth.

[Denver Distiller]

I have no idea of what he is fermenting. My answer is what could have caused the problem he incountered and I thought that I answered as clear as I possibly could without talking in riddles. I do not know who the sailorman is and I personally do not care. I am a wine maker who knows fermentation and have encountered all fermentation problems that exist in the past 48 years in my profession so perhaps I thought I was helping this guy. my knowledge in distillation is very mimimum to be precise it starts and ends with brandies, grappa and various liquours but I am anxious to learn all you can teach me. cheers

---the "hey you asked" wasn't directed at you. My apologies if my reply came off poorly! I'm quite sure that you could offer answers that are every bit as helpful as mine, if not more so. There isn't one way to get there, and I for one would be interested to read the response of a winemaker. I can assure you that I have much to learn, and certainly do not have the corner on wisdom here.

Cheers!

[sailorman9]

I'll respectfully offer a few opinions....so take this for what its worth, as there's a million ways to accomplish your task.

1st, don't use white sugar. It's basically dead weight, flavorwise, and stresses the yeast as there's nothing there in terms of minerals or anything else, frankly, that will give you interesting flavors. As the very least, use cane syrup instead. Lots more nutrients, lots more going on. YMMV. This is a sticky wicket, as I know that many are using it for "rum" in the US, but it's about as low a road as you can travel. I support all of my fellow distillers, and support everything you want to make, but consider that there's a lot more characterful substrates out there. It just requires a bit of sourcing. Look to St. George.

2nd, don't add the sugar in stages. One and done. There's no good reason to add it in several steps. if you wish, add a kraeusen to mop up the last few degrees of sugar at the end of fermentation, but raising the sugar content after primary fermentation isn't good for the yeast. Give them a nice, steady, predictable environment.

3rd, don't mix a fermentation. Without getting overly dorky and scientific, it creates negative congeners. It's one of the big things that brought Schlitz down (not kidding). No need to stir a liquid fermentation.

4th, drop your temperature back down to where it was 1st.

5th, simplify your acidification regime. Pick one until you're comfortable, and then play around when you're getting clean fermentations.

6th, simplify your yeast nutrition. Put in a call to White Labs if you'd like. They can help you with one single source for yeast food that will get you where you need to go.

Be sure to oxygenate your yeast, as well as the mash.

Please remember I'm trying to help, so take this for what it's worth.

Thank you,

Are you saying to oxygenate the mash while the yeast is doing its thing? On this last batch, I aerated for 50 hours before the pitch, but not after.

[Mike Fiore]

The yeast didn't contact the Dap until the pitch. The manufacturer claims that Fermaid K should be added after the end of the lag phase and again at 1/3 sugar depletion, unless it's different for a all sugar mash. I've read that Dap is toxic to the yeast at rehydration.

Obviously the 200 grams of Dap was insufficient with the initial 200 lbs of sugar. What is VA?

Thanks,

Curt

VA is volatile acids the present legal maximum limits of volatile acidity are 0.110 g.per 100ml

[Denver Distiller]

Thank you,

Are you saying to oxygenate the mash while the yeast is doing its thing? On this last batch, I aerated for 50 hours before the pitch, but not after.

No, I'm not. And 50 hours is too long, unless you're adding more yeast nutrient, sugar, and agitation with that o2 (in which case you're propogating yeast). You'll want to oxygenate your mash once, regardless of what the substrate is, just prior to pitching.

You would do yourself a big favor if you simply called www.whitelabs.com and asked to speak to Chris White. Yeast is this man's business, and he's been around the block several times. He'd be happy to help you with the good fermentation practices that he's been working with yeast for years, and recommend which of his yeast nutrients would work best with what you would like to accomplish. He can help you select strains, too, as well as oxygenation rates for prepping wort/mash. No, I don't work with the guy, and to be honest, I don't use his yeast, but you'll thank yourself if you set aside 20 minutes of time to speak with the man. He'll set you straight and you'll have good, clean, repeatable fermentations in no time.

He's likely forgotten more about yeast than many of us can remember.

Cheers!