Malting rye

[PeteB]

It is finally finished, my first batch of rye spirit from green malt has been double (pot) distilled in my new distillery.

Very different from barley malt spirit. Almost a raisin smell in the still room when the heart was coming off.

At 120 proof it has a light spicey, peppery taste and a very pleasant aftertaste.

No hint of the green shoots and roots that went into the mash which is a relief.

My next challenge is to get the overall yield a bit better.

I think I should start another topic for that.

Somewhere during the next 2 weeks I will be harvesting my next rye crop with my almost antique Claas header.

The grains are looking really plump this year so hopefully that will solve part of my low yield.

I would still like to hear from anyone doing their own malting, especially if it is green rye.

Thanks all

PeteB

[Andrew]

The mashes we've done with 100% rye (with rice hulls and beta glucanase) take about 1.5x to 1.8x as long to lauter as the 100% 2-row runs we've done, providing the lauter doesn't stick.

When they do stick, well, it's a long day.

[Seattle Spirits]

Remember that Congress DP number, while usable for for malt product comparison have little to do with the mashing schedule/quantity a typical brewer/distiller would use.

The water content of a Congress test is 3X what we would use and it has already been soaking in water for an hour before they start the clock to count the saccrification.

What is your mash in temp? are you doing a protein rest?

If you are trying to go straight for the saccrification rest your efficacy is going to be pretty poor as you will be working with partially unconverted grains.

As for the wet malt the main reason to kiln it is because of spoilage, the main concern being ergot fungus, but I assume being a rye farmer you have a way to detect it?

Oddly enough Rye is considered a noxious weed and I have no access to the seed but I have had good success on a pilot level with wheat and barley.

Also make sure that you are watching the acrospire and not the first rootlets, the rootlets may be quite long and you will have little or no conversion, wait until it is the length of the grain and taste it, it should be sweet.

Best of luck.

[PeteB]

Thanks for your post Seattle Spirits

Firstly, ergot. If there was any ergot present then it would float to the top of the water during the steeping phase, it is very buoyant. I have seen ergot many years ago, it is black, banana shaped and about 2-3 times the length of a rye grain. From memory, its lifecycle is over 2 years in the field and is quite complicated. I cant see any way it would multiply during malting even if some didn't float out.

You said "Rye is considered a noxious weed". Are you talking about RYECORN - secale cereale? Ryecorn could be called a weed if growing in the wrong place, but "noxious" never heard it called that before!

Back to your question about mashing temp etc, I put water at 75c (167F) in mash tun, add rye meal and this reduces temp. to about 70c (158F),Add hot washed seed husks to aid lautering, stirr approx 1 hour. Temp now around 65c (150F). Add 20%(dry wt) ground green rye malt and beta glucanase. Stirr then leave 1 more hour before start runoff.

[Clarity]

Pete and all this is a really great discussion.

My main function in this realm is malting, and I spend a lot of time and money kilning grains. I think there are a couple of points here that i would like to make:

1. Kilning is done to stop germination and preserve the grain in it's "modified" state so that it can be used months or even years later by brewers & distillers. Getting the correct moisture really makes a difference for getting the correct grind when you are using a roller mill, however if you are using a hammer mill you are pulverizing everything and most likely have a way of filtering out the fine particles (mash filter vs. lauter tun in the brewing world). Also kilning helps to remove some of the tannins in the grain, and thereby enhances the flavor. In generic terms, the higher temp the kiln the more flavor develops, however this higher temp kills off enzymes needed for mashing. There are literally text books written on kilning and malting, so I will stop my explanation here.

2. The rootlets are a pain to take off without damaging the grain when malt is green, however when it is dry they literally fall off when you rub the dryed malt together.

3. Rootlets are both high in protein and high in tanins, plus they look bad, so that is why they are removed. The added protein slows a mash and the tannins add off flavors.

That being said, I think you should try using green malt in your distillates. If you are malting in your distillery so that as soon as you have full acrospire length you are mashing in, I don't see a problem. You will have very good DP. My only concern would be flavor - if you could use green malt to brew with, believe me Anheuser Busch would be doing it, but they use dry malts because green malt adds to bad flavor in beers. If you are distilling, I don't know this for a fact, but I would hope that most of those off flavors are removed during the distilling process. If you try it in a batch and it comes out good go with it, kilning is by far the most energy intensive portion of malting, and you will save all that effort by using green malt. If it doesn't come out that good, you may be able to dry with a smoker - we do a few smoked grains that I dry with a wood fire, you may not have to dry them down as far as you would if you were ordering this malt or storing it for long periods but again would depend on rootlet removal, and grinding method.

As far as consistency goes, I wouldn't be concerned, if you are malting on such a small scale, consistency is going to be a problem whether you are kilning or not. The only reason the big guys are "consistent" is because they have such volume they can blend batches in order to have a "consistent" product. Malt is malt, and you may not get 80% extract, but if you get 60% is that going to be a problem? By using a low or no kilning temp, and assuming your grain is a good malting quality, the diastatic power should be pretty good, even though extract is low.

Sounds like a great project you are working on.

Cheers,

Christian

[Denver Distiller]

Good stuff, Clarity.

Fun thread, fellas.

[Seattle Spirits]

PeteB,

yes Secale Cereale is a noxious weed in my part of the world, we are in an area where the battle is to keep things from growing, rye is extremely viable and good at self propagation.

Now others in here will disagree with me on this but I come from a home brewing background and so take this all with a grain of salt but I do get conversion in my mashes. I do not claim expertise, but this is what worked for me.

With self malting you are not going to have fully converted malt and thus you will greatly improve your yield if you do a stepped mash with a protein rest.

The nice thing about using green malt is that you will also have more of some protein enzymes that are denatured by kilning.

I would try a long protein mash, it destroys the head foam in beers but you will actually want this as it will reduce the krausen and may prevent blow off.

But the main benefit for you will be:

a) the amino acid nutrients are released for yeast.

the endosperm starch structure will be broken down releasing more of the saccrification proteins

This protein step is not only for protein breakdown but for the beta glucanase enzymes that like a similar temperature as they break down starches and can reduce that gluten mess that can cause stuck mashes.

I know that you are adding beta glucanase at your sacc rest temp but I think it denatures pretty quickly at that temperature but I am sure someone can correct me on this if I am wrong.

You say that you are using rye meal, in my experience I get a far better yield from a crush vs a meal/flour.

When you are sparge you want to wash the sugar off the grain if the grind is too small the sparge water will just go around it

Are you using a lauder tun and if so are you doing a fly or batch sparge?

Do you have heat on your tun or do you need to add water to hit temps?

I would try to hit 45C (113F) for 60 min and move up to someplace below 66C (150F) until a drop of iodine (in a tester vessel that that is tossed after the test) does not change color or up to 120min if that gets you a better conversion.

In most beer brewing you want to be in a mix of the ideal temperature for both alpha and beta-amylase because you want some unfermentables to provide mouth feel. If you don't need that body for your end product or feel that it doesn't add the character you need and prefer to optimize for alcohol production I would stick to 63C (145F) as a strike temp if you don't have control over your mash tun temp, or 60C (140C) if you do.

Of course this will slow the alpha activity but that is preferable to denaturing the beta especially seeing as in distilling and not boiling like in beer brewing you will have active enzymes in your fermenting mash and should up your extraction.

For what it worth, with soft wheat and about a 2/3th acrospire which was the sweetest point in my taste testing testing; crushing unmalted grain in a 2 roller mill and "pulsing" the raw malt in a food processor for a few seconds I could hit 80% conversion with batch sparging.

Our regional malt house now sells "identity preserved" malt that helps us meet our state mandated 51% in state raw materials law...so we stopped working on it.

Best of luck and I am very interested how your yield/flavor works out this year.

[PeteB]

Thanks Clarity and Seattle Spirits.

I went fishing in the weekend hence my slow response, also you have given me quite a bit to digest.

I said I use rye "meal" I really ment "grist". I had been reading a Canadian report that called it meal. In my mind meal is finer than grist.

I have no easy way to increase my mash temperature other than adding extra hot water. I would rather keep it simple and start out at a strike temperature then let it drop from there.

It looks as if I am starting too high and destroying much of the Beta amylase.

Also the guy I got the beta glucanase from said 65C was optimum, I found a site on the net that says 45C maximum. I am getting a new container of it tomorrow and hopefully there will be instructions.

Seattle Spirit asked "Are you using a lauder tun and if so are you doing a fly or batch sparge?" I have a lauter tun with a fine mesh bottom but I don't know of the terms "fly" or "batch"

This topic was really about malting rye, so back on subject.

Yesterday I finished harvesting one of my paddocks of rye at 4:05 pm. At 4:15 pm I stopped the truck outside my distillery snd offloaded some grain to start a malting. By 4:17 it was in the steeping tanks with grasshoppers swimming around the top. A bit of extra water and they swam off down the drain. IF fresh grain is important, then I should get a good malt.

(ps. fresh rye malts well in my past experience, but oats need to be about 12 months old before they give good germination)

PeteB

[Seattle Spirits]

PeteB,

If you aren't sparging I assmue you are just draining the Lauder Tun which should get you about 60% of the dissolved sugars.

If you do what they call batch sparging and fill the tun again, stir and run off you should get 60% of that remaining 40%.

Fly sparging is where you basically slowly run off the mash in a way that the two waters work like a black and tan beer or any layered mixed drink.

you match the incoming sparge water with the rate that you are removing the water.

This will significantly increase your extraction if done correctly but may dilute your mash too much to justify the additional sugars collected.

Even if you don't have direct heat on your Tun there are ways to up the temperature and the homebrew beer guys have it pretty down pat now.

You can do what they call a decoction mashing where you drain off part and heat that to boiling and return it or you can use pumps (google RIMS and HERMS)

I was wondering, rice hulls do help prevent stuck sparges but is there any reason you couldn't keep some of the chaff and mix it in with the mash?

[PeteB]

Thanks Seattle Spirit, fly sparging is what I do. I just had not heard that term.

I googled RIMS and HERMS and that would certainly work. I could use my heat exchanger that cools the wort, and re-plumb it with hot water instead of cold water and recirculate. I just thought of a easy way. Set up a big pot with a propane burner under it, on the tun. Pump wort into the pot and let the hot wort overflow into the sparge pipe.

I am doing another mash tomorrow. My green rye malt has shoots averaging 3/4 length. I should be doing it tonight but it will have to wait till morning. I am taking samples from the malting every 12 hours and getting them analysed.

I am going to start with a minimum amount of strike water at 55C (130f)--rest-- then hope to push temp to 65+ (150f) with very hot water.

I do use grass seed husks which speed up the runoff a lot. These ones are very fresh, came off the harvester yesterday.

[PeteB]

Just letting you know the latest.

I have tried several "step" mashes with different rests in an attempt to reduce viscosity, but the wort is still very slow to lauter. I think I will have to accept that it will always be slow. I have set up automatic pumps so I can leave it overnight. My alcohol yield per Kg of rye is OK

I did try a batch using 20% dried malted barley just to see if I could get a lower viscosity and/or better yield than I was getting from my own "green malt". Viscosity and yield were much the same, but the fermenter produced a huge amount of foam and made a mess. "green malt" produces very little foam so I suspect the shoots and rootlets act as a natural antifoam