Tools of the trade

[Paul G]

Continuing from this thread:

I'm considering different tools that may be available or useful to us that haven't gotten much consideration due to their non-traditional nature. The electronic hydrometer is of particular interest to me. As mentioned in the preceding thread, its advantage over a glass hydrometer is that you have an unambiguous indication. Unlike floats, there isn't a chance of parallax or errors from the meniscus. You get a clear numerical reading and that's that.

I also recognize that industry standards can require more tried-and-true methods to be recognized as valid indication. I've been in situations where an archaic, error-prone, fragile analog meter was the standard over a NIST traceable digital multimeter. It's not inconcievable that the regulatory agency is behind the times either by red tape, stubbornness, workload, or simply oversight in the case of emerging technology.

In this particular case, I think there's a good justification for the sensor in the still running process where the operator is monitoring the output of the still. With a clear, unambiguous reading, it can be helpful in the cut making process. In this capacity, I would strongly suspect that there's no requirement calling for instrumentation. In the end, it's the final product whose measurement matters to TTB, a float can be dropped in the container, read, recorded, and compliance is maintained.

So, in an attempt to not beat a dead horse, what else is there? Are there other nifty gizmos and whiz-bangs out there that might serve a useful purpose in our trade/art that may have not been previously considered due to their non-traditional-ness?

Inquiring geeks wanna know

Cheers,

Paul

[Jonathan Forester]

Well, not really new per se, but in my simple direct fired pot still, I have thermowells in the kettle, head, and parot to hold thermocouples. Which run to a multi-track digital logging thermometer mounted on the wall next to the still. This then runs to my computer where I can keep track of temperatures in the boiling wash, the head, and the condensed spirits; and track the temps over time on a graph display. I can then compare runs of similar and different products, chart cuts, etc. and make pretty graphs and such to hang on the wall and stare at. (Tech Distiller Porn) So an old fashioned copper still, basically a replica of an 1800's style, farmhouse, whiskey pot still, has been brought into the computer age.

I having been thinking for several months of getting the digital hydrometer and putting it in the parot as well, so I can tell the ABV% of the condensed spirit more accurately than having the floating hydrometer in the parot. I hate squinting at all the tiny numbers on the damn thing as it is, so a nice large digital display would be nice.

Continuing from this thread:

I'm considering different tools that may be available or useful to us that haven't gotten much consideration due to their non-traditional nature. The electronic hydrometer is of particular interest to me. As mentioned in the preceding thread, its advantage over a glass hydrometer is that you have an unambiguous indication. Unlike floats, there isn't a chance of parallax or errors from the meniscus. You get a clear numerical reading and that's that.

I also recognize that industry standards can require more tried-and-true methods to be recognized as valid indication. I've been in situations where an archaic, error-prone, fragile analog meter was the standard over a NIST traceable digital multimeter. It's not inconcievable that the regulatory agency is behind the times either by red tape, stubbornness, workload, or simply oversight in the case of emerging technology.

In this particular case, I think there's a good justification for the sensor in the still running process where the operator is monitoring the output of the still. With a clear, unambiguous reading, it can be helpful in the cut making process. In this capacity, I would strongly suspect that there's no requirement calling for instrumentation. In the end, it's the final product whose measurement matters to TTB, a float can be dropped in the container, read, recorded, and compliance is maintained.

So, in an attempt to not beat a dead horse, what else is there? Are there other nifty gizmos and whiz-bangs out there that might serve a useful purpose in our trade/art that may have not been previously considered due to their non-traditional-ness?

Inquiring geeks wanna know

Cheers,

Paul

[Charles@AEppelTreow]

You could put a webcam next to the parrot and run the video stream through software to read the proof. We do something similar in one of our labs to measure evolved gas. Labview (from national instruments) has an image processing library for just this kind of thing - and it's easy to program in.

Here's another thought. Put a Near IR spectrometer in the output and then make the cut by the shape of the spectrum. Alcohol would be just one variable. NIR spectra might have features that coincide with good (or bad) flavors.

[Vodka Rob]

One of the best purchases I have made for out distillery is an Anton Paar DMA. I have been told that the TTB uses the large version the 5000 ($30,000) We don't have that kind of flow right now, so we bought it's little brother the 35N handheld (roughly $2500). It's a great little tool and has really helped me get things dialed in here. Our contact guy is Tom Carson. thomas.carson@anton-paar.com

He flew out and showed us how everything works. Great guy!

Links below:

Big Brother DMA 5000 http://www.anton-paar.com/ap/apinternet/ht...ult/cxsn-5smfs4

Little Brother 35N handheld. http://www.anton-paar.com/density-meter/la...5nzhus.en.0.jsp

Rob

[Classick]

One of the best purchases I have made for out distillery is an Anton Paar DMA. I have been told that the TTB uses the large version the 5000 ($30,000) We don't have that kind of flow right now, so we bought it's little brother the 35N handheld (roughly $2500). It's a great little tool and has really helped me get things dialed in here. Our contact guy is Tom Carson. thomas.carson@anton-paar.com

He flew out and showed us how everything works. Great guy!

Links below:

Big Brother DMA 5000 http://www.anton-paar.com/ap/apinternet/ht...ult/cxsn-5smfs4

Little Brother 35N handheld. http://www.anton-paar.com/density-meter/la...5nzhus.en.0.jsp

Rob

Just a heads up Rob... something we discovered after we purchased (and subsequently returned) our DMA 35N... it is only accurate up to .5 proof, which from what we discovered in the TTB regs, is not technically precise enough for bottling. Now, thats just a written law, and given that the alternative is squinting at the hydrometer and hoping you have an accurate thermometer its good enough to get you in the ballpark, but for us... for money, it just wasnt accurate enough.

That being said... it is a very cool tool, it would be even nicer if it had temperature correction to show true proof... but i suppose thats why they get the big bucks for the DMA5000

[Robert Cassell]

Just a heads up Rob... something we discovered after we purchased (and subsequently returned) our DMA 35N... it is only accurate up to .5 proof, which from what we discovered in the TTB regs, is not technically precise enough for bottling. Now, thats just a written law, and given that the alternative is squinting at the hydrometer and hoping you have an accurate thermometer its good enough to get you in the ballpark, but for us... for money, it just wasnt accurate enough.

That being said... it is a very cool tool, it would be even nicer if it had temperature correction to show true proof... but i suppose thats why they get the big bucks for the DMA5000

I am relatively sure that is does have temperature correction. I use this tool regularly and love it. Probably the best money I have spent. I get more consistency in my final proofs using the DMA 35 then with the hydrometer. Aside from the squinting......you have so many other factors that can influence user to user readings (small micro bubbles on the hydrometer, cooling effect of alcohol on outside evaporating, etc).

[Classick]

I am relatively sure that is does have temperature correction. I use this tool regularly and love it. Probably the best money I have spent. I get more consistency in my final proofs using the DMA 35 then with the hydrometer. Aside from the squinting......you have so many other factors that can influence user to user readings (small micro bubbles on the hydrometer, cooling effect of alcohol on outside evaporating, etc).

It doesnt have temperature "correction" though it will tell you the actual temp of the sample inside.

we had a guy from Anton Paar out to our place to show us the ins and outs of the machine. Like i said, it was a great tool, but i dont think it is precise enough, according to the regulations, to achieve precise enough proof. It was particularly good for dilutions though, getting into the ballpark before having to "dial it in" visually with the hydrometer.

we are saving up for the DMA 5000

[Vodka Rob]

It doesnt have temperature "correction" though it will tell you the actual temp of the sample inside.

we had a guy from Anton Paar out to our place to show us the ins and outs of the machine. Like i said, it was a great tool, but i dont think it is precise enough, according to the regulations, to achieve precise enough proof. It was particularly good for dilutions though, getting into the ballpark before having to "dial it in" visually with the hydrometer.

we are saving up for the DMA 5000

Not trying to beat a dead horse, or show anyone up, but I wanted to know the answer to the correction question so I emailed our rep. Here is the reply he sent:

"The 35n does correct for temperature, however unlike the benchtop units, it does not control the temperature of the sample. Meaning, the 35n will measure the temp and density, then refer to a table programmed into the unit to cross reference the two. Because the handheld does not measure the temp or density as accurately as the benchtop, there is a larger level of uncertainty. "

Hope this helps everyone.

Rob

[Vodka Rob]

I forgot to add that he said:

"the 5000 is "only" $22,280."

Rob

[Classick]

I forgot to add that he said:

"the 5000 is "only" $22,280."

Rob

Hah... yeah.. we'll be saving for a while i think.

Thanks for the clarification on the temp.