Rum dilution produced haze

[BuffingtonArms]

would a rum (or any spirit for that matter) produce a haze if being diluted with tap water vs distilled/R.O.'d? I know it would depend on the the town water specifications/impurities it contains as well as the abv of the rum. This is not my problem, and would never conceive of using raw tap water for dilutions, but.......a distiller, i know, did.

[Kristian]

If you have too much of the tails which are heavy in oils you'll have this problem. Also, temperatures of the distillate and the water when mixed, and solids/chemicals in the water can cause haze. Try redistilling and cutting tails at higher proof. I know a distiller who had this happen too.

[PeteB]

Malt Whiskies often produce a haze when diluted, especially at lower temperatures. I only ASSUME rum is the same.

There are at least 3 ways to deal with it.

1) Simplest is to let it settle for a few weeks and draw from above the flocc layer when bottling

2) Chill filtering is another way which has been discussed recently on this forum

As Kristian said above, it is caused by the oils. A small amount of the right oils are good for taste so you shouldnt try to eliminate completly.

3) Convince your customers that haze = better taste

There may also be a problem with the tap water, there are so many possibilities there. You seem to suggest no haze with RO water. If this is the case then the oils might not be causing the haze.

[DucatiGuy]

The alcohol should always be added to the water when diluting (not the water to the alcohol), also as previously indicated both should be at the same temp. Very common for barrel aged alcohol to go cloudy if not diluted properly.

[PeteB]

The alcohol should always be added to the water when diluting (not the water to the alcohol), also as previously indicated both should be at the same temp. Very common for barrel aged alcohol to go cloudy if not diluted properly.

That is interesting, have not heard that before. Acid to water, yes, I remember that from school chemistry--long time ago.

I think it could be a bit impractical if you had say 1,000 litres of alcohol and needed to add only a few litres of water

Has anyone else heard of this? If it stops clouding then it might be worth the trouble.

[DucatiGuy]

I had the same issue with clouding during dilution after barrel aging. Was informed to add the alcohol to the water vs other way around....instantly cured my issue which made me a believer. I've no clue of the science behind it, but for me at least it made all the difference.

The longer story:

My experience was this; after my first dilution and subsequent clouding I thought maybe my distilled water was impure. For the next batch I bought some new, different brand distilled water which gave the same result. For kicks I even tried a (small) batch with tap water again yielding the same result. Was then given the above advise from a trusted forum member and have never again experienced cloudiness after diluting.

I've no clue if you'd see am impact dealing with ratios from 1,000 liters diluting with only a few liters of water...may very well not make a difference. For my barrels in question I was aging at a little higher than normal ABV (72%) so my amount of water being added was a decent amount.

I guess at a minimum, for those experiencing clouding, it's worth giving it a try. Sure worked for me.

[Copperstill]

The alcohol should always be added to the water when diluting (not the water to the alcohol), also as previously indicated both should be at the same temp. Very common for barrel aged alcohol to go cloudy if not diluted properly.

Were did you hear this? Doesn't this lead to more aggressive Saponification?

[DucatiGuy]

Were did you hear this? Doesn't this lead to more agressive seponafication?

Information was given to me by a longtime trusted member of another forum. I'm afraid I'm I'll prepared to discuss seponafication, but would gather from my limited experience (described a post above yours) that the opposite is happening which i'm speculating is causing the hazing. I certainly cannot discuss at a chemical level, but it works for me.

This past weekend I had the time to do a side by side test. Same rum from a charred barrel, same distilled water, side by side same day. When I add the water to my rum it hazes within 10 minutes. When I add the rum to the water, zero hazing. I cant say I know much more than that.

[Allanine]

I think I can take a shot at this. If I remember my O-chem correctly, it seems that formation of an emulsion is the problem. The goal is for the oils, alcohol, and water to be in a true solution, no separation. After distillation our oils are in solution with the alcohol, forming a molecular complex that is half water loving and half water shy.

Adding the alcohol-oil mixture to water causes the formation of micro-droplets called micelles. These droplets bend the light and cause haze.

On the other hand, by adding water to the alcohol the water is overwhelmed by and dissolves into the alcohol/oil solution, bonding to the alcohol side of the complex without forcing the oils to curve into micelles.

If that sounds off-base please let me know.

[Rich Morgan]

would a rum (or any spirit for that matter) produce a haze if being diluted with tap water vs distilled/R.O.'d? I know it would depend on the the town water specifications/impurities it contains as well as the abv of the rum. This is not my problem, and would never conceive of using raw tap water for dilutions, but.......a distiller, i know, did.

Probably been said already, town water (hard) with a high TDS will precipitate the salts as sediment in spirits over 30%. Just dont risk it, dilute with RO water only. But town water will USUALLY give you a stronger ferment as these salts are beneficial to yeast health (within reason).

[Copperstill]

OK food for thought. The commercial distilling industry has been around for at least 400 years, and everyone adds water to alcohol. Do you think in all that time people have never tried it the other way around? Why would the industry continue to make water additions to alcohol if there wasn't a good reason for it if especially if alcohol to water was much more convenient?

[PeteB]

I think I can take a shot at this. If I remember my O-chem correctly, it seems that formation of an emulsion is the problem. The goal is for the oils, alcohol, and water to be in a true solution, no separation. After distillation our oils are in solution with the alcohol, forming a molecular complex that is half water loving and half water shy.

Adding the alcohol-oil mixture to water causes the formation of micro-droplets called micelles. These droplets bend the light and cause haze.

On the other hand, by adding water to the alcohol the water is overwhelmed by and dissolves into the alcohol/oil solution, bonding to the alcohol side of the complex without forcing the oils to curve into micelles.

If that sounds off-base please let me know.

Your above theory seems to be the opposite of what DucatiGuy is observing.

[DucatiGuy]

Lots of good insight in this thread, and after further experiment I've changed my tune.

Copperstill had a good point and got me thinking I've done further tests and can see do difference between adding the water to the alcohol or the alcohol to the water. I'm not sure what was happening before, but perhaps my temps between the water and alcohol were not the same.

I'm not done looking into the issue, but at this point I'm thinking that I retract my earlier posts. Good to keep learning, it's one of the draws for me.

[Dehner Distillery]

emulsified and de-emulsified

in solution and out of solution

knock on wood, I have never had any problem with rum, but whiskey I can get a haze if I don't watch it. I don't relly care on a dark whiskey because you can't really see it, but with my corn whiskey I don't want any haze.

Take Care!