Jump to content

Custom Botteles...10K Minimum? Really?


hometeam

Recommended Posts

Hello, All.

After going through this form for a few hours, researching every thread that I can find about custom bottles, I was not able to find a link/thread that I had seen a while back about a Mexican company that will make less than the 10K minimum bottles as we've heard about so much.

SO! Since a bottle is created from four parts, top/bottom/front side/back side... Why is the minimum 10K?

What I'd like to do is just get a stock bottle such as the common whiskey bottle shape that the Eagle Rare or Antique Collection is in, but just change the front - does anyone know of a bottle-maker who will make less than that 10K number for a first-run?

My feeling is that since there are so many more companies that need bottles than there were here even a two years ago, somewhere there's a custom house that will do less than that common minimum.

Or, perhaps find someone else that wants a similar bottle who also only wants 5K, and then chat with a bottle-maker about switching out the front mold after the first 5K. Is that a crazy idea?

Thanks in advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of the Chinese manufacturers were offering runs less than 10,000, but the charge for the mould tooling was very high. Making it about the same as a larger run. I agree that there is a demand for short run custom glass, but the machinery and processes they use just do not lend themselves to short runs.

My advise is too look at getting the tooling made by one company and then tout for a glass plant with down time willing to consider a short run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't work that way, gentlemen.

The main reason is the size of the furnace and machine (single, double, triple or more gob and number of sections receiving those gobs), moulds change over and wear of preform moulds and parts versus finish moulds for proprietary moulds for its life expectancy which determines the cost of bottles and viability of projects. Keep in mind that the glass is boiling 24hrs a day, 365 days. Furnace will stop to be rebuilt every 7 to 11 years. most furnaces run using fossil fuel, making it very costly to stop a machine to change over moulds for small production runs while the furnace is running but no bottles are being moulded.

Ex: Single gob machine, minimum run for a 750mL of 30,000 bottles weighing 500 grams in green or standard clear not extra clear = Between $12,000 & $20,000 for the complete mould sets and parts, and about $0.80 per bottle FOB Montreal, Los Angeles, Miami.

Yes, there's a company in Mexico making those 10,000 bottle runs on smaller semi-automatic machine which is old technology but does the work. They do have the same restriction with moulds and parts.

I can provide more detailed info over the phone or answer your emails to why it is not that simple and/or make an offer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SO! Since a bottle is created from four parts, top/bottom/front side/back side... Why is the minimum 10K?

huh?

Relaxol very cordially answered your overall concern RE the minimum and why they are what they are....I'm just seriously confused by the logic behind the quoted remark....is there a typo that is changing the meaning of what you intended to type?

-Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I am working with TopLine for glass. I know Dave Flintstone had problems with them, but we are working on a custom bottle right now anyway. I just got the first glass samples today. I would reject them all if they were from a production run, but this is the first step of many. Hoping the flaws can be worked out in the next iteration and production glass should be ordered after that. Mold is $3000 only if they can deliver. You only pay if you like the product and intend on buying the glass. Then the minimum is 10K bottles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Moving onto the third iteration with Topline. Taking a long time to get this bottle right. I am starting to see why people gravitate toward stock glass. Still hopeful, but looking at stock alternatives now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Questions to consider:

  • If it takes several tries to get an acceptable sample of a straightforward bottle, what will happen with an actual order?
  • What about subsequent orders?
  • Why would one even be sent samples that are clearly substandard?

I have been through the Chinese wringer, it is difficult to navigate and fraught with hardship. There are undoubtedly some winners; unfortunately there are a lot of losers. I would never buy China glass again from an unknown factory*. The price is enticing but it is simply not worth it.

*what is an unknown factory? One not directly owned and operated by the western bottle manufacturer you are buying from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fortunately, there are plenty of stock options out there, and guys like Topline minimize the risk upfront. That being said, this will be their last chance at getting it right. I hope to be a "winner" in this effort, but worst case, I lost nothing significant.

I think going down this path only works if you have the time. It will take at least six months to either reject or accept a custom design. Then another two months to get a production order. Then, you just hope the defect rate on your 10K bottles isn't too high, but it will be high with Chinese glass. For me, price per unit is less important that getting the bottle I want. Sadly, the shape I am looking for has been impossible to find in a 375ml package, so I am trying to make it, and only China will do this for less than $20K for a mould and sample run.

I will keep everyone informed of progress. Hope to have the next iteration in the next couple of week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Smoogdog, I'm curious about how much design direction or prototype production you supplied to Topline. Did you just give them an outline drawing, or did you give them a fully rendered 3D model?

I'm curious about this as we have some of these capabilities and have certainly discussed the idea of designing our own bottles. I would think that supplying a 3D CAD model or even a 3D printed prototype might ease some of the frustrations mentioned on this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jedd. The design with Topline has been outstanding. They have taken our drawings and concepts and gotten perfect 3D mockups in Lucite at a very reasonable price. They took my concepts and got me 3D CAD models within days. I am not actually frustrated with Topline at all. I truly think they are working very hard on my behalf to produce what I want. It simply might turn out that what I want is not within the capabilities of their glass plant. We have made some significant modifications to the last round of designs, and I believe this is a make or break point. I will need to have a bottle by the summer, and I still hope it will be Topline glass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Well, it appears the Topline experiment has come to an end. The last shipment of samples is on it's way to me, but from the images I've already seen, they are not going to work. For what it's worth, the experience was beneficial and really didn't cost me anything but time. Since my distillery is not operational yet, time is one thing I have in spades. Moving on in a new direction. If anyone has actually made a custom bottle successfully, I would love to hear about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear this as I was following this thread closely. If you don't mind me asking, was the complexity of your design the root cause of the failure? If so, could you briefly describe it? Please don't feel pressured to share anything you wnat to keep confidential, but something as vague as "shape", "size", or "decoration" might be helpful to the group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Problem was the shape and getting straight lines inside the bottle. It is a squarish design. I am still looking for someone to make it. Just doesn't appear it will be Topline at this point. Don't get me wrong, they did a lot of work on this, and they ate a lot of development to try to pull it off. Just couldn't get it done to the level I need.

Any bottle guys out there who think they can take a stab, I am open to suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

can you post a picture of the bottle design you are rejecting? I'm curious to see the design to understand the importance of lines inside the bottle.... perhaps your design is too complicated? Could you get by with a perfect outside shape, and then convey the lines using a shrink wrap label, or some other form of decoration? Also, do you have a ballpark of the per-piece cost you are anticipating on paying for your custom design? I currently go with a stock shape from Bruni, and the glass/decoration is one of the most expensive components of the assembly...more than fed excise tax... I considered doing a custom bottle before i was in production, and looking back, I am grateful I do not have to pay the custom bottle price, nor have the overhead of a custom mold on my books. If you are curious what my bottle looks like, visit www.twenty2vodka.com and scroll down a bit after confirming your age. Thanks!

-Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Problem was the shape and getting straight lines inside the bottle. It is a squarish design. I am still looking for someone to make it. Just doesn't appear it will be Topline at this point. Don't get me wrong, they did a lot of work on this, and they ate a lot of development to try to pull it off. Just couldn't get it done to the level I need.

Any bottle guys out there who think they can take a stab, I am open to suggestions.

can you post a picture of the bottle design you are rejecting? I'm curious to see the design to understand the importance of lines inside the bottle.... perhaps your design is too complicated? Could you get by with a perfect outside shape, and then convey the lines using a shrink wrap label, or some other form of decoration? Also, do you have a ballpark of the per-piece cost you are anticipating on paying for your custom design? I currently go with a stock shape from Bruni, and the glass/decoration is one of the most expensive components of the assembly...more than fed excise tax... I considered doing a custom bottle before i was in production, and looking back, I am grateful I do not have to pay the custom bottle price, nor have the overhead of a custom mold on my books. If you are curious what my bottle looks like, visit www.twenty2vodka.com and scroll down a bit after confirming your age. Thanks!

-Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Scott.

can you post a picture of the bottle design you are rejecting? I'm curious to see the design to understand the importance of lines inside the bottle.... perhaps your design is too complicated? Could you get by with a perfect outside shape, and then convey the lines using a shrink wrap label, or some other form of decoration? Also, do you have a ballpark of the per-piece cost you are anticipating on paying for your custom design? I currently go with a stock shape from Bruni, and the glass/decoration is one of the most expensive components of the assembly...more than fed excise tax... I considered doing a custom bottle before i was in production, and looking back, I am grateful I do not have to pay the custom bottle price, nor have the overhead of a custom mold on my books. If you are curious what my bottle looks like, visit www.twenty2vodka.com and scroll down a bit after confirming your age. Thanks!

-Scott

Thanks Scott. Interestingly, my bottle really not unlike yours. The interior lines are much like the bottle you have, but I want my bottle to be short and cubed rather than tall and slender. To me, I only get one chance to make a first impression. Time to market is less important to me than consolidating my branding elements. Over the past 3 years I have been hand gathering heirloom sugar cane species and growing a farm from single plants. A few extra months or even more to get the bottle just like I want is well worth it to me. Since I started down this path, a lot of people have gotten into production ahead of me. But, I am confident in my vision, so I do what I can to remain patient. I can always produce and barrel my rum while I am trying to get the bottle done. Would be nice to cash flow fast, but not at the expense of the vision :)

As far as price is concerned, my bottle was slated to cost $1.25 FOB Honolulu if made in China. The mould cost was only $3,000 from Topline. So, had it worked this would have been a great deal for me. I am willing to pay more for both the mould and the bottle. United quotes $12-$20K for a mould and I assume their super-flint price would be more like $1.20 FOB mainland US/Canada. This is actually acceptable to me if they can get it just right, but I do not need 30K bottles right off the bat. That is easily double my expected first year production, and storage is not cheap in Hawaii. I hope to hear from them this week, and I am also talking to other bottle makers.

Mahalo nui loa,

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Scott.

Thanks Scott. Interestingly, my bottle really not unlike yours. The interior lines are much like the bottle you have, but I want my bottle to be short and cubed rather than tall and slender. To me, I only get one chance to make a first impression. Time to market is less important to me than consolidating my branding elements. Over the past 3 years I have been hand gathering heirloom sugar cane species and growing a farm from single plants. A few extra months or even more to get the bottle just like I want is well worth it to me. Since I started down this path, a lot of people have gotten into production ahead of me. But, I am confident in my vision, so I do what I can to remain patient. I can always produce and barrel my rum while I am trying to get the bottle done. Would be nice to cash flow fast, but not at the expense of the vision :)

As far as price is concerned, my bottle was slated to cost $1.25 FOB Honolulu if made in China. The mould cost was only $3,000 from Topline. So, had it worked this would have been a great deal for me. I am willing to pay more for both the mould and the bottle. United quotes $12-$20K for a mould and I assume their super-flint price would be more like $1.20 FOB mainland US/Canada. This is actually acceptable to me if they can get it just right, but I do not need 30K bottles right off the bat. That is easily double my expected first year production, and storage is not cheap in Hawaii. I hope to hear from them this week, and I am also talking to other bottle makers.

Mahalo nui loa,

Robert

In my opinion, the price per piece you are telling me is about 1/3 of what I would have guessed. I've talked with other manufacturers, and I'm pretty sure I'm not getting ripped off on my glass price.... So, sounds like you may have found a deal, but then again, you don't have any glass in hand yet either.... Just throwing some caution out there while you are still in the planning stages for this part of it, there is a significant chance that your glass prices are going to be alot higher than $1.25 each, and if you can work some cushions into your financials in case, you can always put them into marketing if you don't need them....

Best of luck,

-Scott

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion, the price per piece you are telling me is about 1/3 of what I would have guessed.

Just FYI, my bottle is 375ml, not 750ml. Could have something to do with the price difference you factored. Probably should have mentioned that :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...