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Jim J

Liquid Sucrose?

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We are getting closer to opening our new facility in St. Charles Missouri, and was wondering if anyone has tried using liquid sucrose instead of granulated sugar. We ran some tests with HIgh Fruitcose Corn Syrup but it does not ferment worth a darn. I would like the ease of liquid sugar, but I am concerned about how well it will ferment, and also the shelf life. Any help woul be appreciated.

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We are getting closer to opening our new facility in St. Charles Missouri, and was wondering if anyone has tried using liquid sucrose instead of granulated sugar. We ran some tests with HIgh Fruitcose Corn Syrup but it does not ferment worth a darn. I would like the ease of liquid sugar, but I am concerned about how well it will ferment, and also the shelf life. Any help woul be appreciated.

I've got no experience fermenting the stuff by itself, but if you're concerned about shelf life, it is my understanding that invert sugar's is much longer than plain old sucrose's. I think that it may ferment easier as well.

Good luck,

Nick

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Any pure sugar (even sucrose) tends to crystallize pretty fast, which is one reason why HFCS syrup is used industrially. The glucose+fructose combination is much more stable.

I (long ago) conducted test ferments of various select sugars using brewing yeast and my result was that yeast fermenting pure fructose (with nutrients added) resulted in a very slow fermentation and very poor attenuation. Don't take that as anything more than one amateur's experience. Yeast produce an extra-cellular invertase enzyme that cleaves the non-reducing sucrose into a glucose+fructose ((easy to test and I've done this)). The sugar mix *should* be similar to HFCS, but it's entirely possible that some yeast metabolism is triggered by the sucrose that allows it to metabolize fructose better. That's strictly a personal hunch.

Others seem to have success fermenting HFCS. So ....

When you are running trials - sure to add sufficient yeast nutrients including amino acids for the ferment (the syrup has zero nutrients, just carbs). Be sure to adjust the pH to something the pitched yeast will fine 'happy' (~pH 5). Be sure to adjust the wort/syrup gravity down to something tolerable to your yeast.

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With real sugar you have to add nutrients. Plus you have "feed" your mash the sugar. You can't just add a crap ton of sugar. If your sugar % is to high you will kill the large part of your yeast.

Lets say your going to mix 100 lb of sugar to 50 gallons of water. Start with 30 lb of sugar for the first 24-28 hours, and over the next 3-4 days feed the rest in at 20-25 lb at a time.

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Not to steer the topic of course, but were you able to sample with small qtys of HFCS? I haven't seen it in less than ~250 gallon totes.

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Nothing will have a higher concentration of sugar than granular sugar. The sugar density is far higher than hfcs, or anything else.

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Nothing will have a higher concentration of sugar than granular sugar. The sugar density is far higher than hfcs, or anything else.

Huh? How is liquid invert different from a solution of granular sugar and water? Other than having gone through inversion?

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I'm not saying that you're correct, I'm saying you're wrong. Granular sugar is 100% sugar, and anytime you add water or another substance to that it dilutes the amount of sugar in the whole total percentage of volume. Meaning less sugar content per unit.

For example if I had 999 mL of sugar and added 1 mL of water it would only be 99.9% sugar. So my overall point is there is nothing that has a higher concentration of sugar than pure sugar.

So your high fructose corn syrup contains a certain amount water and a certain amount of sugar so basically if it contains any water it is less than 100% sugar.

And I'm sorry I'm not trying to upset you. I'm just giving you my two cents. I've been at this game for over 12 years now.

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Ok, this might be one of the most nonsensical things I've seen.

So I concede, yes, 100% granular sugar is almost 100% actual sugar, disregarding the fact that it is hydrophilic, and there will be some water tied up in it on a molecular basis. Also, there is probably a little bone ash in there if it was cane sugar, although there will be none if the sucrose comes from beets. And if we take that a step further, and you can take your 1000 g of sugar and grow it into a perfect crystal, that will be even purer!

But how the hell do you propose to ferment that? You can't toss dry yeast into dry sugar and expect to get alcohol!

Additionally, in order to ferment effectively, you cannot have the gravity of your HYDRATED sugar above a certain threshold that inhibits cellular reproduction.

SO...all questions of purity aside, which is most economical to ferment? Granular sugar, HFCS, or commercial liquid invert? Answer, depends on what you are doing, but I find that liquid invert is the best way to both store and measure sugar used for chaptalization. It's super cheap and easy to get, too. And unlike granular, I don't have to hydrate it first, or heat it to invert it.

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Natrat, Id love to talk to you re liquid invert and sources' Dick G (703) 408-2776

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