re-bottling spirits.

[bioviper]

its came to my attention that a large majority of new craft distillers are buying spirits in bulk and just re-bottling them. isnt the reason we all started doing this in the first place was because we were getting a bit tired with all the mass produced booze out there and thought that in time we could make a better product. now a large amount of little distillerys are just flat out re-bottling and lying about it to there customers. they dont even own a still . at least have a small one just for looks dummys. dont get me wrong i think blending whisky is an art and some blended whiskys are some of my favorite whiskys to drink. so if there blending with there own whisky to some how set them apart i think thats great but where is the art in just getting a tote of bourbon and just putting it in a bottle and slapping a label on it and call your self craft or artisan . if a bunch of distillers keep doing this the majority of rye and bourbon are going to just taste the same and people will just be picking there brands based on the damn label. help me out here my people . what do you guys and gals think? id like to hear from some of you rebottlers too if you have the guts to come out in the light and back up your case . im not going to name names yet but i need to know how the craft distilling world feels about this.

[Panoscape]

Well, we're going for the gold and starting our new distillery by fermenting, distilling and bottling our spirits. It's going to be a hard road, but one worth traveling.

[Sudzie]

I believe that this is going on as a short cut to profitably for some that can't get the process right. Others may fall into this category due to the fact that our society is in a race to the bottom of the ladder as far as personal responsibility goes. Everone wants to just hit the easy button all of the time. Where taking the work product or dollars from others is the theme of the day. I am sorry for those that partiscipate in doing business this way, as deep down inside they will never have the personal satisfaction for giving birth to their product. I think, we as craftsmen in our trade need to produce products that we make from conception to bottling. That is where the term "craft distiller" should be wheel housed and promoted by ALL.

I for one, will pledge we will only bottle, produce, and sell what is created in-house, as we strive for the personal satisfaction (pride) of creating quality products, services and experiences to all that we serve in our daily business efforts. You see we want to be known and appreciated in this small but growing segment as a "Craft Distillery". Not a producer of booze.

I learned quite a while ago that money feeds your belly and pride feeds the soul.

-Dave Woods

[bioviper]

not trying to say im on any high horse or telling you what to do . when you talk about a shoe string budget we openend our distillery for 60,000 bucks with our old ass stills. i have crunched the numbers and if you want to put the work in at the distillery and put in the 15 hour days its cheaper to distill your own spirit than it is to buy in bulk and re-bottle. so dont say its because of money that your doing it. and if you need somethin to keep the lights on sell moonshine like we did or make gin and vodka . it seems like your making alot of excuses that have big holes in them. you have to put yourself in our position for a sec. if your working your ass off to make fine spirits from scratch 15 hours a day all month long and than run all over hell bar to bar trying to sell moonshine by hand and than you see people taking short cuts and selling spirits that some factory made and than you have the balls to say thats craft its alittle mindblowing. if your so proud of what you do than put the name of your distillery up on this site and tell the world that your proud of the fact that your such a artist because you know how to fill a bottle!!

[Ned]

I guess I feel that people go into business for a lot of different reasons and while you or I may have gotten in to distilling in order to create something from mash to bottle others may get into it because the industry or people in it drew them or because they are business folk that want to create a cool brand and run a creative company that way. I don't think you can judge someone because their motivations differ from yours, just as I wouldn't want to be judged as a poser from someone who planted and grew their raw materials because I didn't farm mine or malt my own grain. We all are driven by our individual interests. I struggle with this at times, like when I see other's FOB prices lower than my COGS but there lies the power of differentiation. Some will differentiate on price, or branding, others on their story, or process and others will focus more on what they put in the bottle, the market decides the right equation. Every small brand out there helps to train the drinking public on the idea of small distillers, bottlers, rectifiers whatever you want to call them and that helps the whole segment. My opinion.

[Panoscape]

EDIT: My partner and I have now decided to take the hard road with our new distillery and focus on fermenting, distilling and bottling without any aid of GNS. We believe it's the right path to take and will do our best to become a top tier craft distillery.

I can understand new distilleries wanting to supplement their bottom line with GNS, it's a decision business owners are going to have to make.

[bioviper]

Agreed with Ned.

Bioviper, No where did I say I would be calling the rebottled spirit "craft". It seams you have a pretty big beef with people that do so... and I would too. I've done the numbers also and there is no way one can produce GNS inhouse for less than the going rate of $.60 per 750ml, delivered. So, as a start up it is a numbers game, and this product will bring in capitol right away as we learn how to make "craft" spirits.

BTW, we are starting with less than you, so we need to make capitol right away. This will do it.

Best of luck to you with your venture.

god i hate when people kill me with kindness because it works on me. sorry if i came off alittle strong sometimes i just get to typing about something i feel very passionate about just comes out. i do hope you have success . but again i dont agree with all ned had to say. i already think that there is way to many distilleries coming out . there is not enough room for all of us in this market. just like the beer boom most of us will die out within the next 5 to ten years and the ones making really outstanding spirits that stand out on there own will make it. a ton of people are putting there life savings and retirment into this thinking its gonna be a gold mine and they might be in for a rude awakening. i feel bad because alot of people are going to loose there ass because there will just be to many of us and especially if alot of us are rebottling and our product taste the same. cheers

[Ned]

I hear you Viper, but I guess I'm ok with that (as long as I'm not one of the folks that shake out). There will undoubtedly be a shake out, but look carefully at the brewing world, they're on the third wave. Their first shake out was in the mid 90's! There is always room in the market for the right product, there will always be new folks coming in, folks dropping out and folks losing their shirts. It sucks but it's the reality. In the mean time, I think as long as you're doing what you want to do and are fired up about it, you can't ask for much more than that. Lastly, anyone getting into this business because they think it's going to be a gold mine deserve to lose their shirts, I've heard it said that the the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one and then get into the alcohol business...

[bioviper]

I hear you Viper, but I guess I'm ok with that (as long as I'm not one of the folks that shake out). There will undoubtedly be a shake out, but look carefully at the brewing world, they're on the third wave. Their first shake out was in the mid 90's! There is always room in the market for the right product, there will always be new folks coming in, folks dropping out and folks losing their shirts. It sucks but it's the reality. In the mean time, I think as long as you're doing what you want to do and are fired up about it, you can't ask for much more than that. Lastly, anyone getting into this business because they think it's going to be a gold mine deserve to lose their shirts, I've heard it said that the the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one and then get into the alcohol business...

ha thats funny i like that. well said bra

[Kristian]

I've heard it said that the the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a big one and then get into the alcohol business...

Is this going to be the theme T-shirt for all ADI Conference attendees this year?

[porter]

This is probably the hottest topic you could get in front of me. If you only mix, you're not a distiller and shouldn't be licensed as one. The distillers permit is much the same as the old ham radio license compared to the CB license. There's a lot of training and learning to reach the distiller level.

I've had this argument before with 'wineries'. Some around here serve food and wine but don't make a drop themselves. They simply resell others products, or have wine private labled, but fall within the legal of being a 'winery' ; If they don't make wine they aren't a winery.

Absolutly adoment on these points. And I would love to see the remixers get a different classification in the regs, thereby preventing the use of "Distilled by" or 'Proud Distillers" on labeling.

The TTB is so spot-on about formulas and product descriptions but so damn blind when it comes to the meaning of the basic word distilling.

Stills are cheap to get started with. 1500 will get you a nice working one. Much less if you know someone with copper skills. I know of 2 local distilleries who started with copper and a keg, won awards, stepped up to a 29gal unit each. Total outlay on a small startup distillery, complete <$50k. Bonds, licenses, bottles, etc.

And just for the record, if you don't know how to distill on a small scale before getting into business then you aren't ready for the business.Harsh but true. Lots of workshops and internships to give you the chance, besides the usual good ol boy way.

Rant over.....pant pant pant......

[jwymore]

I guess the real point here is, run your business the way you want but don't deceive people about what you are doing.

[nick jones]

its came to my attention that a large majority of new craft distillers are buying spirits in bulk and just re-bottling them.

All distillers do this, big and small. Rather than just "buying spirits in bulk" most larger producers just buy entire distilleries and/or brands. Just ask Stranahan's and Hudson Bourbon. Welcome to wonderland. Perhaps someday you yourself may be in the enviable position of deciding if you'd rather pocket a few mil or "not sell out".

Everone wants to just hit the easy button all of the time.

So true. Nothing against the business/marketing types out there (especially because y'all fill in my paychecks, and we distillers need you), but "crafting" spirits is not for everyone. It is an art, a craft, a skill, a devotion, an obsession. Those of us who do it do not appreciate those of you who don't pretending to do it. Call yourselves "brilliant marketers" or "inspired businessmen" or whatever. Just don't call yourselves distillers.

If you only mix, you're not a distiller and shouldn't be licensed as one.

There is no licence for distilling. There is only a license for "producing distilled spirits" and this includes the profession of rectification that you seem to look down upon. Unlike you, I have tons of respect for many rectifiers. Obviously, there are those rectifiers that embarass the profession of rectification, but I would be surprised if you maintained that this is not also the case with "distillers".

To throw in my own two cents, I believe that most "noobs" to this profession are disturbed to realize that all of the marketing BS that they hungrily gobbled up as "consumers" is, in fact, total BS.

The sooner that everyone realizes that, the sooner they will be able to concentrate on creating their own new, creative, amazing spirits, free of the total lies that have been crammed down their throats their entire lives.

Nick

[Mash]

I am Craft Distiller, and make craft spirits. We lease farms in the area to produce the needed grains, and import what we can't from outside the state. I would love to buy some bulk spirits, but "To thyself be true" and simply won't do it. I am proud of what we make and look foward to improving our processes. We are small and will soon outstrip our production capabilities. That's life.... as long as we have fun, and proud of what we make, then that's good enough.

[Sudzie]

I am Craft Distiller, and make craft spirits. We lease farms in the area to produce the needed grains, and import what we can't from outside the state. I would love to buy some bulk spirits, but "To thyself be true" and simply won't do it. I am proud of what we make and look foward to improving our processes. We are small and will soon outstrip our production capabilities. That's life.... as long as we have fun, and proud of what we make, then that's good enough.

Here, Here, Mash..... Properly stated. Words that Craft Distillers can Distill by.

[JohninWV]

Lots of good discussion here and a very valid question.

Smooth Ambler does both; make spirits from scratch and buy, marry/blend/mingle spirits that we don't produce...called "merchant bottled" by ADI. We've won awards with both, including Best in Class Merchant Bottler at the last ADI, and I'm equally as proud of the stuff we "merchant bottled" as the stuff we distilled.

We work very hard to make a quality spirit, in-house. We produce vodka, gin, white whiskey and we currently age a variety of spirits. Unlike many here, I haven't found a great deal of success in small barrel aging and I don't want to turn out a large amount of product that is too young. I also haven't found WV (population, really) to meet our retail sales goals and the local control states haven't been as good as we thought in our original business plan.

We have a large operation that employs 3 full-time people and and a couple part-time folks. We gotta have cash flow. So, we decided to get into the "merchant bottling" business. However, we took one main difference than lots of folks, we told people exactly what we were/are doing. The side of our bottle pretty much says "we didn't make this" and we tell everyone we talk to when we are out selling. Pretty much every craft distiller I know, including Kristian above, will tell you that we are open about this.

We also work very hard to source excellent spirits and have turned down about 10 times as many products as we've tasted. We also work diligently on our blends having recently come across barrels that ranged in age from 11 YO to 21YO. It took me 4 months to finalize those "blends". We aren't simply buying and rebottling spirits. It's not as hard as distilling your own stuff, but we work hard to turn out an excellent product.

We ain't messing around. This is serious business for lots of folks, including staff, grain suppliers, the guys that pick up our stillage, etc. Failing isn't an option.

[Piping Rock Distillery]

I'm looking at making Gin... it's what I love, it's what I drink. After researching (and by the recommendation of half the distilleries in NYS), I've decided to go with an NGS from Lake Distilling (for several reasons).

I don't feel this makes me any less of a distiller as some might say... I want to learn my craft, I want to develop my recipe, I want to have product from the "get to" to sell... so does this make me any less of a craftsman because I'm going to "start" with an NGS? Not in my opinion. I will still be "re-distilling" the product.

The raw goods, the time it takes to distill it to an azeotrope and labor involved all adds up to more than what buying the NGS would cost me... so why would I want to take the time (just starting out) to loose money and potentially fail in my business.

I will be "distilling" other products in the long run but for now I want to make Gin... and a great Gin at that. The only way I see to do that is to be able to stay in business and keep the lights on. So I myself will get up and running in the most cost effective way possible so that I can develop my skill and my product over time. From what I can see in this business, it's how you "play by the rules".

[brantoken]

This is an intersting topic,

A similar one is the production of sugar. Sugar plants can make sugar (malt syrup, HFC, Cane syrup, ....etc) much more effeciently than a distillery, I have no doubt, yet still some consider it sacrilige to add sugar to a whisky reciepe. mooshiners have no quandry with it. I have tasted some fine Shine. Why not mash (keep flavor) and add sugar to increase production? Or NGS for that matter. I have been kicking this around for a while. One side says No it's not a truly original spirit, but the business side says , When I start my distillery, I have to survive.

I have drank NGS gin and Vodka, knowing full well that it had NGS in it, Did that stop me enjoying It? Honestly, it preturbed me with an ethical dilemea, but no it didn't.

to the point, I think the real questions are;

Do you make a quality product?

Do your customers like your product?

Is your product affordable?

Is your product something original?

And the biggest for me, does it taste good?

What will I do, don't know yet I not at the point I have to make that decision.

[Kristian]

First off, I enjoy the spirits JohninWV makes and blends. He has a real skill that many don't. And he is more than honest about it. This is the story of spirits, do you think that there are as many stills with distillers running them as their are spirits brands out there? even in craft spirits? See Mountain Moon Vodka that trademarked the phrase "crafted not made" as they are owned by Diageo.

Second, I make my own spirits, I mash and ferment. I use GNS too. I produce contractually for other companies as well.

Herein lies my point, if the people I make a vodka (gin, absinthe or rum) for, have enthusiasm for and ownership in their product; is it their product or mine? When they spend their money developing the product and brand, their time and energy marketing and promoting it, and their anxiety each day... then it is their craft, it is their art and they deserve to have the ownership of it.

THANKFULLY, we are not all the same. Consumers are the driving force here not us so if we can peak their interest in the small distiller, farm distiller, producer, blender, rectifier, brand owner, etc. Then we are promoting our industry and maybe they'll buy a second bottle from one of us instead of...

[porter]

I don't see it as a matter of 'good' or 'bad' spirits. It's a matter of who's doing what.

If a bottle is labeled as coming from a distiller, then you would think they distill what's in the bottle. If it's a remix then the label should reflect that. It doesn't matter how large or small the producer is.

My point is, with all the strict guidelines on what a bourbon or single malt, or how they're aged in what barrel...........why doesn't the TTB licensing care whether the consumer knows they aren't getting something distilled by the company on the label.

Let's see a distinction in licensing and full disclosure on the label. If it's good, the public will still buy it, although it probably won't bring in the large shelf prices and it shouldn't.

Right now, our local/internet group researches and points out to all the fledglings around here when a label isn't telling the truth of what's in the bottle and how it's being made. And, honestly, several have dropped purchasing when they found out they were just getting remixed product and not told on label. They felt cheated. Knowing it was remixed and paying the low appropriate prices isn't a bother to them, just not being told and paying the high prices is.

No, if you haven't ever fired up a still and made the product in the bottle, then you shouldn't be be selling that product under a distillery license. There needs to be a different classification for it.

The re-mixed product you make is probably good, but it shouldn't be sold as a 'hand crafted distilled product'. And let's face it, there's a matter of prestige in knowing how to run a still. That, too, helps to drive the consumer is they think what they are drinking came from the fine art of true distilling.

[Kristian]

My point is, with all the strict guidelines on what a bourbon or single malt, or how they're aged in what barrel...........why doesn't the TTB licensing care whether the consumer knows they aren't getting something distilled by the company on the label.

Let's see a distinction in licensing and full disclosure on the label. If it's good, the public will still buy it, although it probably won't bring in the large shelf prices and it shouldn't.

The TTB already does this with your COLA. If you distill it you say "distilled and bottled by" on the back label. If you blend it you say "produced and bottled by" on the back label. If you just bottle it then you say "bottled by" on the back label. If you don't follow these rules and you get an audit you will be corrected. Just hope it doesn't cost you a boatload.

[porter]

The TTB already does this with your COLA. If you distill it you say "distilled and bottled by" on the back label. If you blend it you say "produced and bottled by" on the back label. If you just bottle it then you say "bottled by" on the back label. If you don't follow these rules and you get an audit you will be corrected. Just hope it doesn't cost you a boatload.

However, you can still have the word 'distillery' in your company name, thereby proposing it was produced by a distillery when in fact it was simply bottled by a mixer. So should we start educating the public on the difference and the termanology....we do on this end.

[Panoscape]

However, you can still have the word 'distillery' in your company name, thereby proposing it was produced by a distillery when in fact it was simply bottled by a mixer. So should we start educating the public on the difference and the termanology....we do on this end.

I couldn't agree more. We chose our name out of respect for others and also the freedom it gives us to pursue any form of spirit creation. We now can create anything under the sun and hold our heads up high, being forthright about what we make. We have been researching many forms of spirit creation and being labeled a distiller would limit what we could do.

If you know Bend, Oregon then you may know of a local distiller that wasn't a distiller but a rectifier for quit some time. Many people where fooled for a long time and when they found out it turned them off of their products, they felt bamboozled. They now have a still and are "redistilling" GNS so they can be true to their name but have lost many old time local customers.

[Kristian]

I think I have enough rules to follow now let alone the government telling me what I can and can't name my own company. We distill and we have the word distillery in our name. That's the point, the consumer makes the market for small producers. If you have a properly educated consumer we all have a place to market our spirits, if not then the people with all the money that can and have used their dollars to mold the minds of the consumer will have a place to market and we'll all close up.

So we can go out there and tell everyone that I am a true craftsman and the small guy next door just bottles what the big guy makes, or we can say there are all kinds of business models and you can buy from me and the guy/girl who proudly owns their own brand even though they are not distilling it themselves. The later will increase our tiny 0.01% of the marketshare. Do you think the "many people who were fooled for a long time" in the example above eagerly went on to purchase another craft spirit or went back to the old standby that grandpa drank?

That's my opinion anyway. The big spirits marketing machines aren't going to tell on each other even though they are doing what you are complaining about, because it's bad for business.

[JohninWV]

However, you can still have the word 'distillery' in your company name, thereby proposing it was produced by a distillery when in fact it was simply bottled by a mixer. So should we start educating the public on the difference and the termanology....we do on this end.

Cool. I'm glad I passed your test. We use the word "spirits" in our company name.