re-bottling spirits.

[nick jones]

No, if you haven't ever fired up a still and made the product in the bottle, then you shouldn't be be selling that product under a distillery license. There needs to be a different classification for it.

While I completely agree that the TTB has completely failed at their job of consumer protection, I can't personally come up with any solutions that would help them achieve that goal.

Is someone who shakes the condensation off of the cork in a bottle of spirits a distiller? What if they blend this "distillate" with NGS and sell it. Did they "distill" that "blend"?

If you decide to incorporate your business, are you yourself not a distiller (because "your business inc" is in fact the legal distiller)?

How does one make a legal distinction between using "corn products" for distillation (corn starch, high fructose corn syrup, flaked maize, and neutral grain spirit, to name a small fraction of them), and using "just plain ol' corn" for distillation?

I like challanges, and attempting to answer these sorts of questions for myself has proven to be a challange that I have not yet accomplished. I continue to think about it and try to come up with solutions, but what I'd like to ask the commenters on this thread is:

How would YOU re-write the Code of Federal Regulations to benefit consumer protection?

Nick

P.S. Of all of the producer types currently unrecognized by the TTB, I think that the "plough to glass" guys should be the first to become recognized. Nobody can deny what they do, and it's pretty damn simple to define.

[Brothers Vilgalys Spirits]

We're blending Krupnikas, a spiced honey liqueur starting with a GNS base. It's actually a recipe I started with at home on the stove, using Everclear, so using purchased GNS is really just a logical step up. I do think there is still a 'craft' or 'artisan' aspect to what I'm doing. I only use whole spices, raw wildflower honey, and GNS in my product. The whole reason I started this company is because I believe sincerely in this product's potential (people absolutely love this stuff), and there's nothing else like it on the market.

But that said, I actually actively resist the 'distillery' label and try to correct it every chance I get. There are some headlines and news articles that have come out saying "distillery" and it is the most succinct way to explain to a consumer that we make liquor (and also that we're not a brewery, which are all over the place here in NC). But I do try to explain that to customers and media folks as often as I can. I'd hate to give my customers the impression that we're doing something dishonest if they came for a tour and go "Where's the still?"

In our case, it certainly was a matter of cost as well as difficulty. I'm familiar enough with distilling and brewing that I could probably produce some acceptable GNS with some practice, but given the product I'm trying to make (and that this is basically a one-man operation right now) it just made too much sense to buy it from a supplier and make sure the end product is consistent. And the upfront cost of a still capable of producing GNS in the quantities I need, along with mash tanks, fermenters, time, space and power for those, etc, etc just adds up too quickly.

Down the road, I do very much want to be distilling our own alcohol, as well as other products, because honestly the red tape is done at this point, so once we can afford it, why not? Whether that's going to be my job or if we end up hiring someone else to handle it remains to be seen.

Anyway, just my thoughts. For what it's worth, I did dump a certain supplier of GNS after their salesman tried to push pre-aged bourbon and rum when all I wanted was a price on 190-proof.

[Brothers Vilgalys Spirits]

Couple more thoughts to add:

About re-drawing the federal regs on this: What's the point? Pride? How are consumers going to benefit, and why should the TTB care when all they're really doing is collecting taxes (and asking for bizarre changes on our labels).

I'm not trying to be snarky, as I really do respect the work that goes into these spirits (I wouldn't be in this industry if I didn't). I'm just curious why, on top of all the other marketing BS that goes on with spirits (distilled 10x, etc), this should be the thing to change. I just don't see it helping anyone's brand in particular, and I can't imagine most consumers being that particular about this.

Really what I think is more in the interest of all craft spirits producers, whether they're distilling, blending, whathaveyou is to raise more awareness about local, regional, and smaller spirits brands in general. A customer who buys a locally produced spirit and likes it, is likely to try another locally made spirit as well. A large part of why craft brewing has been so successful is because smaller brands largely stick together and promote one another. You wouldn't see one neighborhood brewery attacking another because they used extracts or adjuncts in their beer. We don't have the benefit of having a "race to the bottom" among the big brands in terms of quality the way beer does, and spirits are a much more crowded market with lots of brands. But there is a lot of consumer interest in seeking out new products produced on a local or regional scale. Fostering that interest and growing the entire craft spirit market is better for all of us.

[bioviper]

We're blending Krupnikas, a spiced honey liqueur starting with a GNS base. It's actually a recipe I started with at home on the stove, using Everclear, so using purchased GNS is really just a logical step up. I do think there is still a 'craft' or 'artisan' aspect to what I'm doing. I only use whole spices, raw wildflower honey, and GNS in my product. The whole reason I started this company is because I believe sincerely in this product's potential (people absolutely love this stuff), and there's nothing else like it on the market.

But that said, I actually actively resist the 'distillery' label and try to correct it every chance I get. There are some headlines and news articles that have come out saying "distillery" and it is the most succinct way to explain to a consumer that we make liquor (and also that we're not a brewery, which are all over the place here in NC). But I do try to explain that to customers and media folks as often as I can. I'd hate to give my customers the impression that we're doing something dishonest if they came for a tour and go "Where's the still?"

In our case, it certainly was a matter of cost as well as difficulty. I'm familiar enough with distilling and brewing that I could probably produce some acceptable GNS with some practice, but given the product I'm trying to make (and that this is basically a one-man operation right now) it just made too much sense to buy it from a supplier and make sure the end product is consistent. And the upfront cost of a still capable of producing GNS in the quantities I need, along with mash tanks, fermenters, time, space and power for those, etc, etc just adds up too quickly.

Down the road, I do very much want to be distilling our own alcohol, as well as other products, because honestly the red tape is done at this point, so once we can afford it, why not? Whether that's going to be my job or if we end up hiring someone else to handle it remains to be seen.

Anyway, just my thoughts. For what it's worth, I did dump a certain supplier of GNS after their salesman tried to push pre-aged bourbon and rum when all I wanted was a price on 190-proof.

does his first name start with a C by any chance?

[Brothers Vilgalys Spirits]

By some chance, yes it did

[nick jones]

About re-drawing the federal regs on this: What's the point?

The point would be to make it possible for the consumer to be able to understand what he is buying. For example, I believe that many on this forum would be behind a federal distinction between those who distill their own vodka from scratch and those who re-distill neutral grain spirit. This would benefit the consumers who think that when a label says "distilled by" it means that the producer actually "distilled it from scratch", which is inarguably what most every consumer tends to think that "distilled by" means anyway. I'm proud of my re-distilled NGS (and enjoy it thoroughly), but I certainly have no qualms about it being in a different category than those distillers who actually go from grain to bottle (even if I don't enjoy some of their spirits quite as much). I'm also proud of the single malt whiskey that I've been distilling for years (without having ever sold a drop because it's not ready yet, and damn it's gonna be good when it's ready).

Also, with the world-class single malts being released in this country these days, it seems a shame that the TTB requires most of them to be called "whiskey distilled from malt mash", or just plain "whiskey", instead of "malt whiskey". This is absurd, irrational, and detrimental to our country's economy.

I could go on and on about how the current regulations are dated beyond any hope of being useful to anyone, but who cares. Read the regulations yourself. You'll see how dated they are, if you care, which you probably don't.

Sure it'll be a bitch to change them. Doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

Nick

[Brothers Vilgalys Spirits]

I can definitely understand wanting to update the 'whiskey' designations. Just having looked at those in the past made me glad I was making liqueurs which are more of a catch-all. I did have some opposition to the words "spiced honey liqueur" but that changed after I pointed out there are numerous "spiced rums" and "honey liqueurs", and my product contains all those things.

Perhaps there could be an independently certified grain-to-glass designation (similar to fair trade, etc)? It wouldn't even necessarily need to be under the umbrella of the TTB. Having a logo of a third party would also draw attention to the fact that not *all* spirits are always distilled in-house.

I sat this mostly because, even as a "non-distiller" who tries to correct people, it's amazing to me how many consumers choose to ignore that detail (or don't appear to understand that "distilling" is actually how you make the alcohol). I really think that 99% of consumers aren't going to know the difference between saying "Distilled by" and "Bottled by" or even that that's a mandatory labeling difference.

[cbenoit]

The worst I've heard is "Handcrafted Vodka Made From [Local] Water" + "Distilled & Bottled By", where the DSP just cut down bulk GNS.

I own a new liquor store here in DC, and am very interested in offering my customers authentic craft spirits. Here's my working definition of "craft" (which I share with customers):

Whiskey: The distillate has got to have come damn near 100% from their still. No blending of sourced whiskey, but I can't fault some GNS being used to level up the proof. (Right? Feedback welcome.)

Vodka & Gin: Sourced GNS should at least pass through the DSP's still. I figure if I insisted on grain to glass, I'd have nothing to sell.

I rely a lot on Facebook to vet distillers. Anyone who's doing the hard work will proudly show it off on their distillery's Facebook page (I hope), and this method has been pretty revealing. Lots of websites for "craft" spirits which say the right things, but when you go to their Facebook page there's no pictures of actual work.

Also, will be starting up Internet sales this month. And as a DC Liquor Store, I can source from anywhere, no wholesalers or minimums needed. Am very keen on connecting with real distillers out there so that we can promote this movement and make money together.

[JohninWV]

cbenoit: Congrats on the new liquor store. Smooth Ambler is sold in DC and we love retailers that know exactly what they have. I wish you the utmost success.

Here are my opinions...nothing more.

Re: Whiskies...

You shouldn't use GNS to level up the proof. I'm pretty sure that's illegal in most cases (bourbon, rye, etc), but to be honest, I've never looked at it. It seems like a variety of blended whiskies would legally allow it since it's part of the process anyway.

Re: Vodka and Gin....

I don't think anyone that buys GNS and runs it through a still is anymore of a craftsman that we are with Old Scout, maybe less so. Gin, is a different subject completely. As previously stated, Old Scout is not distilled by us, and we are clear about it everywhere, including the label.

If you want to buy Vodka that's not GNS, but is made from grain to glass, you would have plenty of options, including Smooth Ambler Whitewater Vodka and Greenbrier Gin, Boyd and Blair Potato Vodka, Dry Fly Vodka and Gin, Comb Vodka and Gin, and many others. There are quite a few folks that don't make vodka with GNS.

Again, good luck with the store. Let us know if we can ever help.

[cbenoit]

Thanks JohninWV, that's very helpful, and yes, was a fan before hand and was glad to find you on Country Vintner!

Looking forward to shared success for us all.

[JohninWV]

Thanks JohninWV, that's very helpful, and yes, was a fan before hand and was glad to find you on Country Vintner!

Looking forward to shared success for us all.

Thanks!

[Lenny]

I take issue with an operation, large or small, presenting a product that they did not produce, significantly alter, or dictate the in-state production of, and presenting it to the public as locally distilled/hand crafted/made from pure such and such water/artisan/etc. It's not that these sorts of statements are flat out lies -- it's more of an intentional deception to gain sales from a market that is truly seeking out a product that accurately matches those descriptors in their minds.

If I go to a restaurant that claims farm-to-table, I'm going there expecting to eat locally farmed foods. The food might not taste any different that something delivered across the country by sysco, but I would be knowingly supporting a cause that I believe in. Now if their food *did* actually ship from some big food distribution company and the fine print on the bottom of their menu stated that the food did indeed come from a farm somewhere and it was on my table... I'd feel completely let down/deceived and I'd probably flip over a table or two.

Why intentionally mislead your consumers?

In what other industry does this happen? I know it's fairly common for a brand to contract brew a beer with another brewery, but to out right buy product and pass it off as a locally crafted offering without doing anything more than mixing/diluting... Does the wine industry do this? This game seems so disingenuous to me.

*For those distilleries or brands that are buying/blending/re-distilling and being completely transparent about it to the public, thank you for opperating with integrity.

[porter]

This has to be the hottest topic I've ever seen discussed on this forum.

With so much input on a topic there's usually an underlying meaning that the current handling of the particular law, rule, etc. is not being done properly. And so goes with this topic. Apparently there's a large backing for those who desire to get some of the TTB regs changed to more clearly define what a company is making, for very valid reasons.

We have food labels because the FDA says we 'need' to know everything in a loaf of bread, and whether our chicken breasts were fed a grasshopper that was high on bug killer. But apparently we 'don't need' to know how a vice product is produced, according to another government agency. Almost makes the MoonShiners show look like a better business to be in.

Anyway, it's good to see the board this active on something.

[Rickdiculous]

While I really find these topics to a complete waste of time and energy on everyone's part, after reading it all I have a few thoughts. I think JohninWV tells it the way it should be. It would be nice if everyone told the truth, it would be even better if most of the public even cared. Look at your liquor store, the stuff that sells the most is not what we are making. One day it may be.

But simply, there is no right way, or wrong way. Most of this is just posturing and the standard human need to be better than someone else. Let's continue to complain about people doing something we don't like. If they make it big was that a slap to you? If you make it big does it show them up? I like the way Warren Buffet is a rich man. He dogs no one, drives an average american made car, lives in a modest house in a middle class neighborhood in Nebraska. The richest man in the world has absolutely no need to show anyone he is, because he knows it and doesn't waste a minute thinking about anyone else. There are too many liars/cheats/misleaders etc to waste your time on it.

Make a great product however you want, Promote it the best you can, Take absolute pride in it, take the fortune that comes with grace, and the misfortune (if you are the unlucky one) with dogged determination to move on.

As far as the TTB is concerned, I would guess the reason there are definitions were market and producer driven not formulated by the TTB, or any entity it was before, for their own purposes. That said, their concern is the collection of $13.50 per proof gallon. How they get it? who makes it? and who buys it? is of little concern to them. These definitions do not change the amount of ethanol in a 750ml bottle at any proof. I don't think for a second they are going to spend a minute deliberating on how to define what we do, because it is not part of their equation. It is only a part of ours and our need to be special. Quit worrying about definitions, define yourself, be bold and fortune will favor you.

[adamg]

good post Rickdiculous.