Sulfites

[Jake Holshue]

So I just tried to distill some wine on the small scale to investigate to potential of doing some brandy. I did not remember to ask the vintner if it had been sulfited or not. Well I got my answer, and it had been sulfited. It smells awful....

Can someone talk about sulfites and their effect on potential distillate? Is there a way to remove sulfites? Can you only distill unsulfited wine?

Thanks!

Jake

[mattabv]

copper is the key. as much as possible while in a vapor state. when was the last time you cleaned your still with ctric? try this and rejuvinate your coppers ability to hold back your sulfites.

[mattabv]

another possibility is experimenting with copper sulfate additive. I remember a discussion on sulfides in wine a few years back. look see

Matt

[Jake Holshue]

Well my small batch still has very little copper, so it did not have much contact with it during the vapor stage. So that could be part of it. But I am also airing it out to see if the sulfites bond with oxygen and gas off.

[mattabv]

Jake, you can try packing your column with copper mesh which will not only hold back your sulfites but also increase your abv. copper, copper, copper. the black color in your copper still is sulphur......

Matt

[mattabv]

one more thing to try is a slower distillation. seperation of alcohol is cleaner usually leaving behind more of the unwanted stuff. good luck and let me know how these work.

Matt

[Charles@AEppelTreow]

Watch your oxidation state, please. You folks are saying 'sulfite' but describing cures for 'sulfide'. Different number of electrons, different cure.

Sulfite is okay as an additive for wine (to a certain level), and if you look in 27 CFR 200, you'll find that the list of 'matierals permissible in distilling material' (made by a bonded winery) includes all the permissible wine material, plus a few extra.

Sulfite mostly comes off during the heads, and can be quite pungent in a sharp, fresh struck match kind of way. Really grips the nose. I've had some linger into hearts, but it tends to blow off quickly. If the base wine has a lot, the correction is hydrogen peroxide. We add it to the pot when filling it. The amounts are discussed in another topic here on the forum.

Sulf_IDE_ is a different matter. It ranges from a meaty impression to rotton eggs. Copper cations are the fix. From metal, from CuSO4 (considered drastic), from fining agents like 'Reduless' - yeast hulls with enhanced copper. If the sulfide has continued reacting to the point of disulfides, you need ascorbic acid to break the bond before the copper can get to it. Better yeast nutrition and/or slower fermentation is the best way to avoid the problem. I had a batch get away from me recently that was so bad that the spirits came out a tan color and the inside of the still was patinad purple. I dumped it down the drain.

[mattabv]

Thanks for the clarification

[Jake Holshue]

Yes thank you Charles@AEppleTreow, and everyone else for pointing me in the right direction. I have left the distillate open to the air for the last 48 hours and the smell has almost completely gone away. I am interested in trying the hydrogen peroxide prior to distillation, and using more copper in my primarily stainless small batch still.

Cheers!

[treskatz]

I have learned that the best way to remove S02 from wines/mashes is to do the following:

(1) distilling the firsty cycle, i.e.making raw distillate/petites eaux/Rohbrand (without column or column switched off) to about 20-25 %vol (if higher ==> dilute with water to 20-25%vol)

(2) add so much NaOH/Sodium hydroxide as needed to reach exactly 5,8ph:

now nearly all sulphuric acid should be bound, if added more the taste becomes soapy, use a good ph-meter

(3) now distill a second time ==> fine spirit/Feinbrand

PS: using H202 is too unspecific, i.e. it'll also react with flavor compounds and oxidize them, and using lime is too cumbersome and also a bit risky (soapy).

ref (german):"http://www.agrar.steiermark.at/cms/dokumente/11305328_13888112/4a7a7e26/Einfluss%20PH%20Wert%20beim%20Entschwefeln%20von%20Edelbr%C3%A4nden%202011-03.pdf"

[Charles@AEppelTreow]

True, shifting the pH to a range where the sulfite is predominantly the bisulfite ion (sulfurous acid, not sulfuric - sulfuric acid would generate sulfate ions - not a problem). Not an approach a wine (or cider) maker would normally think of.

Over dosing peroxide will oxidize aromas. Probably more important to avoid for white eaux de vie. (But it is quick and easy.)

Over dosing hydroxide can saponify esters to carboxylate salts and alcohols. (Saponify -> soap)

Doing either ahead of time will reduce the stability of the wine.

Thanks for including the reference, treskatz.

[Valerii_Fedorov]

I treated wine spirits (though more correct it was spirit distilled from wine leeze (marc)) by special charcoal with impregnated metals and other non-organic sorbents, so i oxidazed diethylsulfide and diethyldisulfides. After the treatment the spirit was improved as for its organoleptic properties: the smell of burnt plastic and garlic was removed, as well as burning pungent taste.