Dehner Distillery Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Here is what I am saying. For hundreds or thousands of years mankind has used wooden tanks for fermentors. For the same time we have been using wooden ships. Why??? Because nothing else existed till only the last 150 or so years. Early on is was hard to get for example, Black Bart the famous pirate had several tons of scrap steel in his hull of his ship that was worth more than gold. Scrap steel was worth a lot because it was so hard to mine. No days we are surrounded by different alloys and plastics. Think how much stuff we throw away. Point is you can have your ideas on wooden fermenters, you can play in the corner with your WOOD! If wooden tanks are so great then how come ........... they are not everywhere??? In my life time I have only seen one at a distillery of about 250 gallons, the rest of the fermentation tanks (about 20) were 275 plastic IBC. But just take a look at the market place. I am willing to bet that gallon to gallon stainless out sells wood probably 1,000,000 to 1 or more. My guess for plastic is probably 600,000 to 1, that is counting the micro brew, and home brew scene. That is what is great about this industry, to each there own. I don't give 2cents about your wooden fermentors, I embrace technology, and the fact I don't live in 1702. You want to do old school, good for you. If you're trying to be a purist then I would highly suggest getting rid of all your electric pumps and anything invented in the last 150 years and going with lanterns and direct fire by wood. If you don't do that then you're just a poser. You all know I love ya. Dehner out... MIC DROP!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 If wooden tanks are so great then how come ........... they are not everywhere??? In my life time I have only seen one at a distillery of about 250 gallons, the rest of the fermentation tanks (about 20) were 275 plastic IBC. The fact that you are totally unaware that wooden fermenters are is use in some of the very best distilleries in the world tells me that maybe you ought to spend a little less time calling guys like me stupid (not nice, and totally unwarranted), or others "posers" (whatever that means), and a little bit more time learning about the industry you are in. Springbank. Hakushu. Glenrothes. Woodford Reserve. Maker's Mark. Balvenie. Santa Catarina Minas (Del Maguey). Four Roses. Chichibu. Arran. Glenfiddich. Yamazaki. Lagavulin. Bruichladdich.....and on, and on, and on...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Unlike wood, with this approach you can control for specific bacterial strains, and introduce them at specific points in the process. Imagine if by chance you got the perfect blend of bacteria, got a fantastic series of batches, and then some rookie dumps sanitizer in the wood tank. The magic is done, it's all gone. Likewise, with a brand new tank, what guarantees you inoculation with the right bacteria and not the wrong bacteria? Nothing. Why leave it up to chance? There isn't any sanitizer on hand in a distillery that uses wooden fermenters. No accidents to be had. Bacteria needs foods and nutrients. You control what's in the fermenters by controlling the food source for the bacteria....and controlling the competing organisms for said food and nutrients (healthy yeast). Why leave it up to chance is a great question, and IMHO, you'll make remarkable whiskey using the method you described. As to the answer to your question, many I have spoken with believe that they get better and more complex flavors from either spontaneously forming bacterial fermentations, or from mutations of said bacteria. Chad Yakoboson of Crooked Stave in Denver and Lauren Salazar of New Belgium Brewing will inoculate their fermenters with a fresh clean culture when the get a new wooden foudre. But they have both told me that the real complex beers are to be had after those initial inoculations have had a chance to mutate, yielding more complex organic acids and flavor. Yes, there's more left to chance using this method...but there's also some fine results that result from the gamble. As for me I've been using the spontaneous method of generating lactobacillus, acetobacter, et. al. in both stainless and wooden fermenters for 15 years now, and I've been happy with the results. Buffalo Trace, coincidentally, just released a whiskey made using a bacterial fermentation that's similar to my own method. http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2015/09/buffalo-trace-to-release-old-fashioned-sour-mash-092315/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisan Still Design Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 talk to any of the big boys in kentucky, they will tell you, same grain bill, same temps same everything, fermented in stainless produces a different product than in their wooden vats. now these distilleries are very careful about changes they make, and how they may adversly effect the whiskey, because they want their product to be consistent, so wooden vats wont be going away. and yes, I'm sure their vats got inoculated with this bacteria all by chance, but its all part of their process now. some would even argue (and I tend to agree) that Kentucky Bourbon is unique because these airborn bacterium are unique to the region. Bourbon made in Indiana for instance does taste different and can be attributed to different strain of Lactobasilici in the area. I like Denver Distillers method of cultivating non yeast cultures to add to the mash, I have played with the same sort of procedure with varied success. This is a potentially effective method of introducing complexities to your whiskey that a "Clean" ferment will not have.h Its all part of the Art that makes this industry so interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3d0g Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Here is what I am saying. In my life time I have only seen one at a distillery of about 250 gallons, the rest of the fermentation tanks (about 20) were 275 plastic IBC. But just take a look at the market place. I am willing to bet that gallon to gallon stainless out sells wood probably 1,000,000 to 1 or more. My guess for plastic is probably 600,000 to 1, that is counting the micro brew, and home brew scene. Holy crap Dehner. You need to get out more. I've seen plenty of wood fermenters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 If anyone wants a good primer on the topic, read Nicholas Wilson's PhD thesis. Honestly, it's very good and well worth your time. http://www.ros.hw.ac.uk/handle/10399/2260 Simson, Petterson, and Priest do a nice job providing an overview of just how richly complex Lactobacillus really are, looking at 64 different strains in 23 distilleries. To make it all the more interesting, despite the huge array of strains known, they just so happen to find a completely new one, which to me says there are many more to be found. http://mic.microbiologyresearch.org/content/journal/micro/10.1099/00221287-147-4-1007?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf Lacto is way more complex than the way it's generally discussed. This applies to many of the other bacteria as well. Simply reducing it to the genus level is a gross oversimplification of what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Are you boiling your wort before adding the specific strains of bacteria, jamesbednar? I find your approach very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silk City Distillers Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Here is an old table I put together when I was just starting to play around... I have a much more expansive table now, but I'm not going to share that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountySeat Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 There isn't any sanitizer on hand in a distillery that uses wooden fermenters. No accidents to be had. Bacteria needs foods and nutrients. You control what's in the fermenters by controlling the food source for the bacteria....and controlling the competing organisms for said food and nutrients (healthy yeast). Why leave it up to chance is a great question, and IMHO, you'll make remarkable whiskey using the method you described. As to the answer to your question, many I have spoken with believe that they get better and more complex flavors from either spontaneously forming bacterial fermentations, or from mutations of said bacteria. Chad Yakoboson of Crooked Stave in Denver and Lauren Salazar of New Belgium Brewing will inoculate their fermenters with a fresh clean culture when the get a new wooden foudre. But they have both told me that the real complex beers are to be had after those initial inoculations have had a chance to mutate, yielding more complex organic acids and flavor. Yes, there's more left to chance using this method...but there's also some fine results that result from the gamble. As for me I've been using the spontaneous method of generating lactobacillus, acetobacter, et. al. in both stainless and wooden fermenters for 15 years now, and I've been happy with the results. Buffalo Trace, coincidentally, just released a whiskey made using a bacterial fermentation that's similar to my own method. http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2015/09/buffalo-trace-to-release-old-fashioned-sour-mash-092315/ Will doing the soak with 20% ABV GNS kill off everything like sanitizer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I'm assuming that you mean "like sanitizer on stainless". Just to be clear, you can't use sanitizer on a wooden fermenter. With that in mind, no, the 20% abv won't sanitize the fermenter. The wood is porous, and hides bacteria. Steam won't do it either....the steam won't get the heat to all of the nooks and crannies. The reason I add that alcohol to the water I use to fill the fermenters is to make sure I don't let other bacteria go to work on the standing water. It's something we only do maybe once a year when we shut down for vacation etc. The rest of the time, we have fresh mash in there the same day we empty them...with fresh healthy yeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Holy crap Dehner. You need to get out more. I've seen plenty of wood fermenters. Hey MC FLY for every there is a million times more stainless and plastic fermenters out there than wooden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 The fact that you are totally unaware that wooden fermenters are is use in some of the very best distilleries in the world tells me that maybe you ought to spend a little less time calling guys like me stupid (not nice, and totally unwarranted), or others "posers" (whatever that means), and a little bit more time learning about the industry you are in. Springbank. Hakushu. Glenrothes. Woodford Reserve. Maker's Mark. Balvenie. Santa Catarina Minas (Del Maguey). Four Roses. Chichibu. Arran. Glenfiddich. Yamazaki. Lagavulin. Bruichladdich.....and on, and on, and on...... You are not hearing me! I love getting a rise out of you, but pay close attention. I am not knocking this special strains of bacteria or different types of use that naturally grow in the Wooden pores of a wooden fermenter. I am just saying they suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 The fact that you are totally unaware that wooden fermenters are is use in some of the very best distilleries in the world tells me that maybe you ought to spend a little less time calling guys like me stupid (not nice, and totally unwarranted), or others "posers" (whatever that means), and a little bit more time learning about the industry you are in. Springbank. Hakushu. Glenrothes. Woodford Reserve. Maker's Mark. Balvenie. Santa Catarina Minas (Del Maguey). Four Roses. Chichibu. Arran. Glenfiddich. Yamazaki. Lagavulin. Bruichladdich.....and on, and on, and on...... I am not calling any one specifically stupid. But you probably did not understand that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 For those who are trying to "school" me you can just stop. 1. I don't care! 2. Your not going to teach me anything I don't know. Also, I never said anything about bacteria and yeast. I basically said wooden tanks suck. I don't care about Jack Daniels and places across the pond. What about MGP? They make a lot of spirits, is there secret wooden vats?? Thought not...... just sayin. I am saying wooden vats are out dated! The idea of a properly set up laboratory where bacteria and yeast strains and traits can be replicated with very consistent repeatability over the different seasons of the year is by far superior to any wooden vessel. For those who are on here .... How many of you have wooden tanks?? How many total gallons of wooden tanks in your whole distillery? How many of you have Stainless or plastic tanks?? How many total gallons in your whole distillery? Answer these question for your self or write back. I don't want to hear about someone else, tell me about your place. Take Care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Holy crap Dehner. You need to get out more. I've seen plenty of wood fermenters. Think about it.......I am sure you have seen some, how many stainless ones have you seen? What do you use? Exactly, thats what I thought! Holy Crap on your self! Dehner out. Mic Drop............. :::::::::::::: this is me walking off the stage:::::::::::::: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3d0g Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I love getting a rise out of you [...] We love getting a rise out of you too! Somedays, you just gotta feed the trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 .................................... Buffalo Trace, coincidentally, just released a whiskey made using a bacterial fermentation that's similar to my own method. http://whiskeyreviewer.com/2015/09/buffalo-trace-to-release-old-fashioned-sour-mash-092315/ And very similar to what I do. See this article from 2011 by Chuck Cowdery who used to be a regular on this forum http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/buffalo-trace-demonstrates-another-way.html A bit more of the history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisan Still Design Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 another experiment in this area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 another experiment in this area From your link...... "A 25 to 30 gallon clean, trash can is about right to sour the corn."........ Wouldn't it work quicker if you just dumped the old trash and didn't clean it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artisan Still Design Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 youd definately build a funk a lot quicker, but I think the point it to encourage the growth of the lacto bacteria on the surface of the corn. I use the same method to get a sour dough stater going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteB Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 I had always assumed most of the lactobacillus came in with the unmalted grain, thanks for the conformation. Grain from a different region could have a different strain / species of lactobacillus which could give a different flavor I have heard stories of lacto "culture" being harbored in spider webs. I tell visitors to my distillery that is the reason I don't knock them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerPederson Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 MGP does have some wooden fermenters if my memory serves me right. 1 out of every 5 beers sold today is a Bud Light. They make "a million" more times the volume of beer than most of their competitors. So by that logic, all other beer sucks because it is outdated compared to to the technically savvy AB-INBEV. If I make whiskey and age it in wooden barrels does it suck? Is it outdated? Should we all be using the TerrePure system so that our products will stop sucking and catch up with the modern age? I mean, thats what you're doing right Dehner? Nobody wants to be a poser... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 MGP does have some wooden fermenters if my memory serves me right. 1 out of every 5 beers sold today is a Bud Light. They make "a million" more times the volume of beer than most of their competitors. So by that logic, all other beer sucks because it is outdated compared to to the technically savvy AB-INBEV. If I make whiskey and age it in wooden barrels does it suck? Is it outdated? Should we all be using the TerrePure system so that our products will stop sucking and catch up with the modern age? I mean, thats what you're doing right Dehner? Nobody wants to be a poser... Are you having trouble reading? I guess so. What does aging in wood barrel have to do with fermentation in wooden barrels? Some peoples kids, I tell ya. :-) You send them to school and buy them books............. I will sum it up for you obviously unable to read. I quote "Non porous fermentation vessel's have greater repeatability than porous fermentation vessels." DEHNER... You can not argue that. As you said 1 out of 5 beers is a BUD, BUD. And a good day to you sir. Dehner out...... Mic DROP............walk walk walk slam ( that was the school door closing on you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dehner Distillery Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Here is how I feel some times. https://youtu.be/X3iFhLdWjqc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denver Distiller Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Are you having trouble reading? I guess so. What does aging in wood barrel have to do with fermentation in wooden barrels? Some peoples kids, I tell ya. :-) You send them to school and buy them books............. I will sum it up for you obviously unable to read. I quote "Non porous fermentation vessel's have greater repeatability than porous fermentation vessels." DEHNER... You can not argue that. As you said 1 out of 5 beers is a BUD, BUD. Well, that certainly explains why Budweiser puts those porous Beechwood chips directly into their fermenters, leaving them in direct contact with their beer for full three weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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